VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[DorienJaye]

Look I know I'm not the first to bring this topic up. But I agree with Chris M we need solidarity and let these bloodsuckers know we don't support their ventures. He's right, one or two letters at a time won't have much effect. To those first getting into this world, or those of you having a hard time getting started, understand you're not helping our industry by whoring yourself and you certainly aren't gaining respect from your peers.

I do want to express my thanks to all of you for participating in this discussion. We need to continue...it'll never end.

And Bish, I'm not alone in saying I appreciate your passion. Thank you my friend.

[Chris Ratliff]

Just my 2 cents... and my reply to Keith's email regarding VoiceGarden:

Awesome! I’m so excited! I can’t wait for you to launch the NEW and IMPROVED VoiceGarden… so you can remove me from your talent list.

Really, Keith? 15 bucks a pop? Why don’t you just change the name to “Just a Little More than Fiver”? I can’t imagine the range of talent you’ll have working for 15 bucks a pop. Your current talent list of 1,700 should decrease significantly to a couple hundred with the best sounding USB mic. I’m sure your clients will appreciate their professionalism.

We professionals have been diligently trying to educate clients on the value of quality voice overs. While $15 (plus your commission) may sound like a real bargain to the client, they’ll soon find out you really do “get what you pay for”. When some unprofessional, not quite ready for prime-time player stumbles his way through their copy, they’ll wish they had hired a real professional to bring their copy to life… and they’ll wish they had paid good money to have it done right.

Forgive my rant, Keith. I just can’t stand to see, yet again, the cheapening of my craft.

While I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, I’d rather not be a part of it. Good luck with that, you’re gonna need it.

All the best,
Chris Ratliff
_________________
Chris Ratliff VO's
www.ChrisRatliffVO.com

"I have nothing more to say at this time. That is all"

[Bish]

I will certainly admit to letting my passions run a little unchecked when it comes to these pariahs, but some good points have been made regarding having a united front... individual (or even collective) rants are certainly cathartic, but ultimately we are fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. For every full-time professional, there are at least a thousand hopefuls who will happily do a $15 gig simply to say they are a VO. We can never impact on that except by raising the bar and educating people about quality products.

This is where I'm happy to be a part of WoVo. The organization is in it's formative stages, but I am heartened to hear that this issue is considered as fundamental. Something that benefits the industry (rather than a short-term individual benefit). The union has no teeth when dealing with this end of the VO price spectrum, and has shown no inclination to address any matters relating to it. To be fair, this may be a slow burn for them and they're picking their battles... there has been significant movement recently in the audiobook field.

Hopefully, within a handful of years, WoVo will be able to issue something like a "not recommended" statement regarding a service such as VoiceGarden... and that statement will carry some weight with both VOs and customers.
_________________
Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.

[Lee Gordon]

Here's my reply to Keith Gilbert:










.
_________________
Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice

[DougVox]

What Lee didn't say.
_________________
Doug Turkel (tur-KELL)
Voiceover UNnouncer®
UNnouncer.com

[Bob Bergen]

This thread is oh so important.

I think what everyone needs to know in their heart, is that it's ok to say "no." No can be a career builder. It can help shape a career. It's empowering. This is why I get blue in the face by telling folks you cannot go into acting for the money. One of the pitfalls of doing so is the desperation and need to say yes to everything. By doing so, you've possibly altered your career course. This is not a lesson learned and actions applied when I got successful. This was advised to me from my first vo classes when I was 14. By saying no to many offers over the years, I was able to weed through what I didn't want out of my career, so when the right opportunities came my way, I could happily say yes.

Now, everything is relative. For many of us in professional vo, anything that is not union is undercutting and damaging. Many of you have standards you set with personal minimums. You get your professional panties in a bunch when you see $10, $20, $50 offers. And you see how this just erodes the standards you are trying to set not just for yourself, but for all of your contemporaries. But no matter what your standards are, they are undercutting the union professional. And those companies and actors trying to do it for $20 a gig are just the next level down. Many of them are just trying to get a chance, work doing what they love, build up experience, etc. We all know that they are just damaging themselves, the industry, and other actors in the long run.

But again, it's all relative.

So, when union professionals see non union talent upset at other non union talent undercutting, well, it's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black.

Now, it ain't going away. And, as I've said before, I am working hard to make changes within the union on behalf of all talent. Both union and non. This effort is more difficult than you can imagine, for all the reasons stated in this thread. I invest about 2 hours a day on this project/issue. Where I come in handy at the union is I see/understand both sides of the fence. I really believe it is possible to bring more union work, with all the benefits that come with it, to more of you.

But to gain them, you might have to be willing to say no from time to time.

[Bish]

Oh, don't get me wrong... I don't go looking for the bad-guys and write unsolicited letters of complaint pointing out their failings. Life is far too short for that! The problem was that I had inadvertently signed up to be on his list before I was aware of the business model. My mistake. I had received a recommendation from someone I trusted (note past tense) and filled out the form. Once it became clear what VG was all about, I requested removal from his list/database. That's when the dialogue started.

If I'd used better judgement at the outset I could have happily ignored their existence as well, but once on his database, it became important to extract myself (guilt by association and all that stuff).
_________________
Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.

[Lee Gordon]

Like Bish, I signed up to be on the VG roster before I realized what the business model would be. Hell, turns out it was before the owner knew what the business model would be. I even got an email from them with a lead for a job that paid $150, which I ignored because it was too low. That was before he took "low" to new "heights."

So, when the announcement was made about the revised rate structure, it included a series of steps required to stay on the roster, including a willingness to work for those low rates, as well as the following sentence: "If we do not hear from you, your profile will be deleted, and we cannot list you on the new version of Voice Garden." Thus, they did not hear from me, and will not hear from me unless I somehow show up on their new roster. This week I got an email that seemed to say "let us know" whether you want to be in or out, so I'll keep my eye on it.

In any case, as I've stated in one or more discussions on Facebook, I believe these low-dollar sites are largely intended to be the replacement for the commercials that small time advertisers have traditionally gotten voiced for free at small time radio stations by the small town talent that worked at those stations, but who have been largely displaced as Big Corporate Media tries to manage their debt service by culling their air staffs. Therefore, the $5 - $7 - $15 - & $25 VO sites are the perfect fit for the $5 - $7 - $15 & $25 talent and they are welcome to these jobs that were never going to pay more anyway. So I believe the discussion does not need to take place with Mr. Gilbert (Keith, the owner of Voice Garden, not JS who is presumably no relation), Mr. Bunny or Mr. Fiverr. It needs to be with any voiceoverist with marketable talent who is tempted to lower his or her standards and dip into this (cess)pool to "pick up a little extra cash."
_________________
Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice

[Gregory Best]

Thank you Bob for working so hard for us all in the trenches. I'm sure it wll pay off some day. Hopefully soon. I hope Lee is right.

All of us who once worked in radio remember having to do production promos and spots for free as part of the job. My profile photo is from 1976. I had to do an hour or two of production work a day. Only extra pay was per station for drag strip spots that ran on many stations in 4 states. "SUNDAY. ..."
_________________
Gregory Best

greg@gregorybest.com

[Scott Pollak]

Greg, go read what I wrote a few weeks ago, about 7 posts down, in this thread:

http://www.vo-bb.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16659
_________________
Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.

www.voicebyscott.com

[Gregory Best]

Yes Scott, we didn't know any better. We are hopefully wiser now. (I left out reference to age. )
_________________
Gregory Best

greg@gregorybest.com