VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD!
Where A.I. is a four-letter word.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Blocking sound above the ceiling

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index -> Gear !
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Blocking sound above the ceiling Reply with quote

I've been keeping a record here on the wall of my jail cell and I think I have read 936,419 different articles on isolating a recording space from external noises. But am contemplating a build in a few months and I don't have any memory that addresses this exact issue.

This build will be in a stand-alone residence, concrete slab floor. So far so good. Lot's of suggestions for keeping out noise seeping up through the floor.

One or two walls will be existing walls in the residence, with added new construction to make this a space with 4 walls. Lot's of suggestions and some experience dealing with walls.

NOW! Existing residential ceiling at the 8-foot level. I will build my walls up to the ceiling. So far, very conventional. No big mystery. I don't have current access to the building... it's 900 miles from me today. I want to go into the attic and do something that will keep out or minimize all the usual neighborhood noises that could come in that way: traffic. lawn mowers and leaf blowers. Airplanes overhead. This loaded vinyl that people sometimes put in walls. Could I put a horizontal layer of LV over the existing insulation and then put another new layer of insulation above that? Maybe a second layer of LV and a third layer of fiberglass or whatever above that? Put a layer of sheet-rock or plywood somewhere in that horizontal sandwich? Any other suggestions?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
heyguido
MMD


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 2507
Location: RDU, the Geek Capitol of the South

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with walls, the best isolation occurs by decoupling from the surrounding structure. Use the 8ft of headroom to install a decoupled ceiling.

As for the attic space, avoid trapping evaporative moisture by sealing off insulated space. This is why attic insulation is loosely placed between rafters, and not sealed in with a vapor barrier. MLV would trap evaporative moisture, creating an unhealthy environment which would encourage mold growth.... And you don't want that. Shocked
_________________
Don Brookshire
"Wait.... They wanna PAY me for this?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Monk
King's Row


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 1152
Location: Nestled in the Taconic Hills

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be great to see some pictures of the ceiling.

I generally use a double leaf system, so I pull down the ceiling drywall, insulate the joists, then slip new ceiling rafter between the existing joists. Insulate those and then hang two layers of drywall into what is now the interior of your room. So the new room is not connected to the floor above it.

For low frequencies think mass, for higher frequencies air tight is key.

Soundproofing in a noisy environment isn't cheap or easy, and each situation calls for adjustment. A concrete floor can be fine, unless there's heavy truck traffic, then it just transmits.
_________________
Company, villainous company, hath been the spoil of me...

www.monksvoice.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monk wrote:
It would be great to see some pictures of the ceiling.


L.O.L. That's what I'm thinking right now!

I've seen this place once. Back in July. At the time I didn't know that it might become MY PROPERTY. It's 900 miles away so driving up on Thanksgiving Day and taking a few pictures doesn't exactly work. Smile I'm probably 4 months away from moving and occupying the space. I still have to decide between two places in the building where I will office-and-studio. (There are two other possible locations but I don't want to use either of them unless there is no other way in the two primary spots.)

I am trying to visualize the process you explained, and I may do something along that line. Doing something like you describe would allow me to create barriers that would take care of the moisture problem that heyguido brought up. It is a one story house and it may turn out that windows are the greatest source of incoming sound and take the ceiling out of the equation.

Current game-plan: When "my boots" are on the ground, set up my mic and recording system and do some test recordings at four locations in the house at the heaviest traffic time and see what I get. Residential neighborhood one block from a busy street in one direction, two blocks in another direction. No trucks other than local delivery even on the "busy" streets. City bus line two blocks away. This may be a piece of cake, this may be a nightmare. I just want to have a vision of how I would handle the ceiling if I find myself living in an audio nightmare. Ceiling access/ceiling borne noise could determine WHERE I locate my recording space.

So much for daydreaming. Back to packing stuff and throwing stuff away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
sounddguy
Contributor IV


Joined: 22 Jan 2009
Posts: 100
Location: Atlanta, GA USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First you didn’t say if the 900 miles was north or west. That would make a difference in the amount of regular insulation that needs to be in place.
My thought would be to build a wall frame in front of the two existing walls, fill them with a rock wool
(sound blanket) If vibration through the floor is a concern, place the base plate on thick carpet and
do not nail to the floor. Build the remaining two walls the same, connecting all four but not attaching
to the rest of the house. ( A free standing box.)
Add ceiling joist sitting on top of the new free standing box.
Fill the gap between the joist with the same sound blanket before putting up the ceiling sheet rock.

An alternate approach would be to remove the current ceiling and insulation, put the box ceiling
in still on top of the new room frame and fill from above with sound blanket. Then cover the top of the original ceiling joist with plywood and replace the old insulation on top. Keep in mind sealing all the seams with non hardening caulk or other material.

If the space around the new booth inside the house is quiet, then closing the outside of the new wall segments with a single layer of sheetrock may be sufficient. If not a second layer of sheet rock or an entire second wall, not attached to the inner box, but can be attached to the floor and ceiling above filled with sound blanket.

A lot depends on how much noise you actually have to deal with. Don’t forget ventilation.

I used this technique in a commercial space and actually recorded with a jack hammer part way across the parking lot.

Best resource is “Building a Recording Studio”, Jeff Cooper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ballenberg
Lucky 700


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 793
Location: United States

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so I pull down the ceiling drywall, insulate the joists, then slip new ceiling rafter between the existing joists. Insulate those and then hang two layers of drywall into what is now the interior of your room.


Monk,..what supports this new ceiling structure?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounddguy wrote:
First you didn’t say if the 900 miles was north or west. That would make a difference in the amount of regular insulation that needs to be in place.


Soundguy and I apparently live quite close to each other... an area where summer heat is our major temperature condition to contend with. Winter is a minor nuisance with maybe one memorable snow-related event giving the season it's personality.

The answer to your question is NORTH... up where people drive their car out onto the ice when they want to sit in that little hut on the lake and fish through a hole in the ice. It will likely be "a cold day in hell" when you catch me doing that!

Quote:
Don’t forget ventilation.


Of all the information.... and product.... I think this area is the most puzzling. It is a very difficult subject to research. I met an HVAC contractor 50 years ago who said he knew what to do... and he did it. I've never met one since that really even understood what the question is. So I do a lot of reading and once in a while a secret falls out of the sky.

Quote:
Best resource is “Building a Recording Studio”, Jeff Cooper.


Looked up his book. Good stuff! He wrote in that era when the focus was building a recording studio control room with good LISTENING was important to production and mixdown. I find it interesting how little was written then about the recording space. Cooper comes from that generation when the room dimension ratios were important to design so you didn't end up with reverb between the surfaces was the same in all three dimensions. To that era a room that was 10' x 12' x 15' was an announcer's booth. To that generation of acoustical people, the idea of treating a room the size of today's little home VO booths was virtually not on their radar.

But I'm not shooting Cooper and his contemporaries out of the sky. Once you understand their logic, their rationale, then you can carry out some good experimenting and some good planning... even on TINY spaces. Thanks for the reference to Jeff Cooper.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of VENTILATION: This is the product I picked up a few years ago: Stanley Carpet/Floor Blower - 1/16 HP, 350 CFM, Model# 655704

Northern Tool, sometimes Walmart and other places will have it. The trick is fabricating a "muzzle" that will fit over the output side of the fan and then transition to maybe a 6" flexible insulated duct. I fabricated one and "it ain't purty" as we say down south.

I my case I needed a "container", a plenum to house the device and then porting an intake duct also. (The Rube Goldberg contraption sits in my attic.) This time of year when you go to Walmart or other retailers, they are selling those plastic tubs that we store stuff in that needs to go to the attic or the garage and be protected from dirt etc. I have a duct coming from down on the first floor to the attic and into the "tub/plenum". The fan sits in the tub and blows air out through the other duct which comes through the wall into my recording space. (A room in the attic.) Important: The duct from the fan plenum to the studio is at least 20 feet long. I run the fan on the LOW speed. I ran it for a while on medium. Got more air... but also: Got more noise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index -> Gear ! All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group