VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD!

[richvoice]

So I got my new Mackie Onyx Blackjack. The idea was to use it as my primary interface, and keep my Apogee One/PreSonus TubePre for a backup. Now I'm not so sure.

I set the gain on the Mackie at about 3 o'clock, and dialed in the "to monitor" and "phones" so that the playback was at about the same volume as when I was recording. I recorded room tone for ten seconds, then a short piece of text, using TwistedWave. Then I swapped the cables back to the Apogee/TubePre setup and kept recording in the same file (another 10 seconds of room tone, then a similar short piece of text). I analyzed the text portions, and the TubePre was a couple of db lower, so I upped the gain slightly and re-recorded; it ended up a couple of db higher, and I figured I wouldn't be able to get any closer, so I quit trying.

When I analyzed the room tone, the Mackie came in at an average RMS of -68, and the TubePre came in at -77; I don't remember the specifics, but the peaks were similar, with the Mackie in the mid -50s and the TubePre in the mid -60s. The text sounded similar; I'm guessing a lot of you would be able to discern a difference, but the only thing I noticed was that the Mackie sounded maybe a little more "flat," but I'm not really sure about that.

So I know a noise floor of -68 is great. But -77 is quieter. I'm just surprised. I would have guessed that the TubePre would have been noisier. But unless I have something wrong, it wasn't. I've been happy with the results when I record, so... I guess I'll just keep using it. I wouldn't mind getting my $100 back from Sweetwater, but I really do want to have a backup; the TubePre is a tube device, after all.

If anyone has any suggestions on a different way to test, or something specific to look at or listen to, please share. I'd be happy to keep comparing in ways that are practical.

Thanks.
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Cheers,
Rich
http://www.richvoiceproductions.com
@RichMillerVO

[FinMac]

Hello Rich,

Here is a link to a video that GW did on noise floor. It might help you to get a more accurate measurement of your noise floor.

https://youtu.be/qAyUtNoT28A

George says that we should use the Peak Amplitude measurement rather than the RMS as our measure of noise floor.

Will that show any difference in the two devices than what you are seeing now? Who knows? But it should be more accurate.

Hope that helps.
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www.scottsvoiceover.com - An American voice in Finland

"If you want to get to the top, you have to get off your bottom". (Unknown)

[Bill Campbell]

I've been at it a long time, and I've never heard a pre, $50 or $2000, that made a significant difference in quality, unless the pre was failing.

I hire many different VO artists over the course of the year, and I want to hear a great "read". I'll rarely notice anything in the sonic quality that I can't fix or adjust.

If you're noise floor is below -60, you're good to go. IMHO, from a producer's standpoint.
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www.asapaudio.com

[Jason Huggins]

I'm guessing that you're a bit off on the test. I HIGHLY doubt that that gear would be that much different. That is almost 10dB. 1-2dB between gear (and I'm talking about decent modern gear) is more like it. -77dB is SUPER low for anyone to get unless you have a mega quiet booth or have an expander in operation. -68dB is lower than anyone will ever complain about or notice.

I'd use what works best for your workflow and only worry about it if you can actually hear noise (i.e. gear is crapping out). No one will complain about noise at -68dB.

[kgenus]

Screw the noise floor tests, just read the preamp specs... look for the EIN, lower is better, do the ohms calc if need be. My preamp is -132dB @ 50 ohms. The Mackie you own, is –126dB @ 40 ohms. The Apollo Twin I use is -127dB, ohms not listed ... smh.

That's your test.
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Genus

[richvoice]

Thanks all. That's what I thought, anything below -60 is fine. Glad to hear that confirmed.

Jason, no expander in operation. My booth is pretty darn quiet, but I've always been pretty surprised at the low noise floor from the PreSonus as well. Aside from the differences inherent in the hardware, the only difference between the two setups is that the PreSonus has an 80hz roll-off switch that I've engaged. It would surprise me if that would make that big a difference, but I'll test again later without the HP engaged.
_________________
Cheers,
Rich
http://www.richvoiceproductions.com
@RichMillerVO

[richvoice]

kgenus, I wasn't familiar with EIN, so I found this: http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/ein/. Interesting reading, thanks for the tip.

The PreSonus specs show: -131 dB, 20 kHz BW, max gain, Rs=40Ω, A-wtd -128 dB, 20 kHz BW, max gain, Rs=40Ω, unwtd.

The -126 @ 40 ohms you posted about the Mackie is the A-weighted number, so I guess it makes sense that the PreSonus is quieter. Assuming my TubePre, which is at least 10 years old, has the same specs as the current model.

Given my skeptical nature, I'll still be interested in testing them side-by-side; specs are what they are, but it's the practical application that matters, and given the possibility of differences in manufacturing or just a lemon out of the box, I have to convince myself that using one will be comparable to using the other. But thanks for the lesson on how to compare this one factor just on specs alone!
_________________
Cheers,
Rich
http://www.richvoiceproductions.com
@RichMillerVO

[Jason Huggins]

HPF can make a HUGE difference for sure. A 65Hz HPF often drops noise floors that I've seen (and I have edited a lot of other people's audiobooks) by about 5-8dB. That, and probably a little bit different gain level, probably accounts for the difference.

One thing to keep in mine is the dB is a full spectrum scale, so if you have really loud (but not really audible) low end rumble, dropping the low end can dramatically change the dB level but not change the tone much at all. You can do a test to show this by recording silence and then use a 30-band EQ and raise your lowest slider by like 50dB. This will increase your noise floor by 50dB but you can't hear any difference (in the noise floor...you will hear a difference in your voice with that kind of a change...but it is for illustrative purposes using silence). It won't "sound" like 50 extra dB of noise. That's where most of your noise is usually in a quiet booth anyway.

Have fun with the tests!

[richvoice]

Thanks, Jason! I didn't realize a HPF would have that much of an effect. Makes the whole thing even less of a concern then, since I have a HPF set up in the TW stack that I use for mastering audiobook files.
_________________
Cheers,
Rich
http://www.richvoiceproductions.com
@RichMillerVO

[FinMac]

Just curious Rich, were you using RMS or Peak Amplitude when getting the reading of -77 dB and -68dB ?
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www.scottsvoiceover.com - An American voice in Finland

"If you want to get to the top, you have to get off your bottom". (Unknown)

[kgenus]

[richvoice]

[DenaliDave]

I have a Shure A15HP high pass filter that I've experimented around with. It seems to be something I don't really need though, as most interfaces have built in, adjustable filters...and when I master tracks in Logic I can set a filter as well.

I suppose an in-line (between mic and interface) hardware HP filter like the A15HP might be good if you want to make SURE (pun intended!) the signal is filtered before it even hits the interface, that's assuming you have issues in the frequencies it'll remove. If I recall correctly, the Shure filters below 100 hz.

I guess one nice thing is that it eliminates the need to run a HP filter in editing, as its already been done as you record. Might save a few mouse clicks during post production of a track...so there is that.

For *me* I've found setting a filter at around 80 hz seems to work the best. I don't loose that "fullness", but I still gain a little bit in SQ from doing it.
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"The wise ones fashioned speech with their thought, sifting it as grain is sifted through a sieve." - Buddha
www.alaskamic.com