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DougVox
The Gates of Troy
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1706
Location: Miami
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 Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bish wrote: | | ... would "no problem, I'll record them again" be such a good answer if it was a 10-hour book... 40 hours of work that the client had lost? |
Yes, it would.
Because I still don't see the upside to not keeping the files.
(And yes, I completely understand that the situation, as presented, is one in which there are no files to send.) But it's also not just a simple case of "customer loss" as you said. There's also some "provider loss" here. Well, "provider deletion," actually.
And while there may have been no stipulation that the audio files be archived for any specific length of time, if it were me, I'd feel compelled to keep them, and compelled to replace them if/when needed.
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Doug Turkel (tur-KELL)
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Scott Pollak
The Gates of Troy
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1903
Location: Looking out at the San Juan mountains
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| DougVox wrote: | But it's also not just a simple case of "customer loss" as you said. There's also some "provider loss" here. Well, "provider deletion," actually.
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And, really, I think Doug hit the nail on the head here. This is not a situation where one side is 100% in the wrong or 100% responsible. Both sides have a responsibility here and both have some degree of blame for the loss. So, that being said, in theory you COULD say to the client that you'll re-record at a discounted rate since they had the files and now they don't, but I personally wouldn't do that.
For one thing, it makes you - the provider - look pretty unprofessional to NOT have backed them up in the first place. Secondly, sometimes - and ESPECIALLY in a somewhat 'grey' area as this situation - it's just good business practice to swallow your pride, bite your tongue (but only AFTER recording!) and 'do what it takes', to build a good relationship, which then can lead to referrals and repeat business.
No doubt everyone involved in this situation has learned an invaluable lesson though, that will far outweigh the lost costs of re-recording, if it comes down to that.
As an aside, and as an example of something very, very similar: my daughter was rushed to the hospital Thanksgiving weekend with a bad seizure. Fortunately she's fine. But we're 'self insured' and when the bill came for the hospital, doctor and ambulance, it was close to $5000. When we discussed with the hospital the fact that we are self-insured, they immediately reduced their bill by 40%. Think that didn't make me feel great? You betcha. And they didn't HAVE to do that. My lack of insurance isn't THEIR fault. It's not THEIR problem. But because they immediately offered to help, I have nothing but the highest regard for them now.
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Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.
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Bish
3.5 kHz
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:25 am Post subject: |
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There are some lessons here... apart from the obvious one about backups!
Is there a case for adding to any client agreement a time-factor for storage and retrieval of files? As in... I agree to keep safe and archive copy of the contracted deliverables for a period of three months after client acceptance. This would remove any ambiguity and reinforce the VOs need for backup and storage. It would also clearly establish a procedure in cases like this where there have arguably been errors on both sides.
I have no doubt that I would re-record lost files as a customer service... but to be honest, it would (for me) be a question of the enormity of the job. A few hours and I'd smile sweetly... a week would cause me to start thinking about the legal obligation side of things.
We are in business. Customer care is an important part of that business, but, as in any business, lines have to be drawn. Here, we are talking about four hours lost after one month. As a theoretical example, it's been extended to forty hours after one month... but what if this request was for forty hours, three months after delivery... six months... a year? These are questions that are probably best answered preemptively in the initial agreement.
Maybe this is a great opportunity for all of us to address this issue and protect ourselves while maintaining a high (but less ambiguous) level of customer care. We all want to "do the right thing", but at some point, the "right thing" isn't.
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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todd ellis
A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 10532
Location: little egypt
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is there a case for adding to any client agreement a time-factor for storage and retrieval of files? |
i do EXACTLY that (after a horrible experience many years ago) noting that "forever" is a mighty long time ...
*producer will guarantee storage of master files for 120 days after the date of delivery to the client. After that time re-delivery/re-production may be subject to additional fees.
have i had clients need re-delivery after 120 days? yes. have i charged them anything? no. but it IS in there.
of course, neil's case was within hours, so ...
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DougVox
The Gates of Troy
Joined: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 1706
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I love Peter's idea almost as much as I love that todd actually does that already. Good on ya'!
And I think that this very eloquently makes the point that re-doing (if necessary) and re-sending the audio is the right thing to do:
| todd ellis wrote: | | have i had clients need re-delivery after 120 days? yes. have i charged them anything? no. |
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Doug Turkel (tur-KELL)
Voiceover UNnouncer®
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Bish
3.5 kHz
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I just knew that Todd was a smart cookie!
It's all about where do you draw the line... and that's going to vary from person to person and customer to customer... and, realistically, depend on the size of the job. My point is that it can't be open ended... getting it defined up-front is the way to go.
... and once again, a perfect lesson in the value of having good backup practices.
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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todd ellis
A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 10532
Location: little egypt
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:38 am Post subject: |
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i DID have a client come back to me 12 YEARS after the original recording - a 30 second TV spot delivered on 1/4" reel-to-reel. i DID have the spot - archived at 15ips on a 10 inch reel ... somewhere. but we chatted a bit and agreed that a re-recording & re-invoicing was appropriate.
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"i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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Mandy Nelson
MMD
Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 2915
Location: Wicked Mainah
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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I charge for telephony clients. Some come back years later and want me to add something to the original. OK. Other clients I haven't bothered to charge since, as it has been said, storage is cheap these days and it's normally out on my ftp site for ages and ages because going around and deleting things would be work.
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Manfillappsoc: The Mandy and Philip mutual appreciation Society. Who's in your network?
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
Location: Location, Location!
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Because you haven't been beaten up enough about this, remember when Connie said that you're so new that "you don't know what you don't know"? This is a perfect, perfect example. There is no earthly reason why you would delete an audiobook after 30 days.
Ok, lecture time over. Have you told the client the situation? How would they like to handle it?
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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Neil K. Hess
Contributore Level V
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 184
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Yes I told him, and I have also told him that I am going to rerecord it for him and have it to him by Sunday at the latest (I am already about 1/8th of the way through the second recording). He seems to have taken it well. I figured, this early on, it is better to bite the bullet, please the customer and learn from it.
Now I am off to research internet backup programs and FTP servers. 
Thank you for your help and input everyone.
Neil
Edit: God seems to be having fun with me...during the rerecord, my voice keeps cracking during the part where I talk about acne and puberty...
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Scott Pollak
The Gates of Troy
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Posts: 1903
Location: Looking out at the San Juan mountains
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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There really IS a plus to this, and I'm not joking.
There's no question your second narration will be better than the first. Having read the entire book AND narrated it already, you're much, much better equipped to do it justice this time around. I suspect it will supercede your first effort by a noticeable amount. Have fun with it.
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Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.
www.voicebyscott.com |
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Neil K. Hess
Contributore Level V
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 184
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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It absolutely is, Scott. And editing is SOOOO much faster now. I am using Reaper (LOVE IT) and I am blazing through it compared to last time.
I was dreading having to rerecord it all day, but now that I have started, I am actually enjoying it.
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Bish
3.5 kHz
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Neil K. Hess wrote: | | He seems to have taken it well. |
I would be interested in knowing the circumstances which led him to lose his delivered files. Did he let them languish on Dropbox and not download... did he download and have a crash without a backup? Did he delete in error? I'm not surprised he took it well. Pot, meet kettle
I think the best take-away from this is the absolute need for secure, long-term backups and a clear understanding up-font of how long you will contractually archive (that last one is an action point for me as well). Second time around was always going to be less time-consuming that the first, and I'm glad you've managed to hone your skills to help shorten the job.
Good luck Neil, sorry you got a hard-ride on this one
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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Lee Gordon
A Zillion
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6866
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JeffreyKafer wrote: | There is no earthly reason why you would delete an audiobook after 30 days.
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With storage options so cheap and readily available, I think there's little reason to delete any project even after 30 years.
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Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Neil K. Hess
Contributore Level V
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
Posts: 184
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Bish wrote: | | Did he let them languish on Dropbox and not download... |
I'm pretty sure this was the case.
Either way, lesson learned and I am going to get some FTP service going with my website (cloud storage) AND back up the files on an external hard drive from now on. I think I would have cried if this would have been a 400 pg document instead of a 40 pager. Yikes...
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