VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[Mike Harrison]

It goes against all the advice I've read from other VO pro's, which recommends asking existing clients for referrals. In the past couple of months I've very nicely asked on separate occasions two people from one of my production house clients - which produces nothing related to eLearning - if they would recommend me to those of their clients who use eLearning. And in both cases, I received not even a response of any kind.

Forget that not even replying is rude and unprofessional, I don't see where asking to be introduced to someone in a division other than that with which my clients work directly should be a problem.

Is there something I'm not considering? Was the advice from the other VO pro's wrong? Am I crazy to expect a reply that simply says, "Let me look into that for you?"

Holy cow, it's as if I were the guy in the old Polaner All Fruit commercials who committed a dinner table faux pas by asking: "Could you please pass the jelly?"
_________________
Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.

[Scott Pollak]

Mike, I'm not sure it's 'wrong' per se, but I'd bet one reason you haven't heard back from the people you asked is because your request may be the lowest item on their priority list.

Most people are pretty overwhelmed with their workloads, especially since businesses cut so much staff during the recession, which in turn increased workload for those who survived the cuts. Being asked to pass your name on to other clients, or send you such info, is a non-income producing task for these folks.

Personally, all I ever say at the end of a job is basically "Please let me know how else I can be of help, and I'll look forward to our next project together."

If you're good, referrals sometimes just happen. I've picked up a couple of clients where they heard my voice on ANOTHER client's work and said "Hey, who's that guy?" and it led to new work.

But that's a crap shoot. I would probably not 'pester' existing clients by asking for referrals for the most part. And I suppose it could come across also as a tad unprofessional and maybe even a little bit desperate.

Just my thoughts.
_________________
Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.

www.voicebyscott.com

[Philip Banks]

All part of Zen Marketing.

There are certain things which tend to go splat for what you believe to be no good reason at all. There are certain things Voiceoverists do which succeed in confirming their professional status as an amateur, in some cases with good reason ....."Ask not what your client can do for you. Ask only what you can do for your client"

[JeffK]

Mike I am assuming you communicated via email? A follow up phone call might work better. Referrals is one of the best marketing tools but not always easy because we have to fight the "head trash" that we are imposing. Asking for referrals was a major part of all the different sales trainings I've had over the years...and always an area lacking universally based on subsequent sales meetings.

[JTVG]

I don't ask for referrals because if I do my job well and make a raving fan, they happen automatically. Asking to get referred seems to give off just a hint of desperation. Whether that's accurate or not, it's my perception and therefore my reality. Might be a few others out there with similar feelings.
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Joe Szymanski
http://www.joethevoiceguy.com

[Rob Ellis]

Directly asking for referrals is something salespeople are taught to do.

Some can do it, and have success with it. I was not very good at it. I think it depends on how comfortable you are with it.

I tend to take a more indirect approach, which is to simply stay on their radar, in a way that isn't overly obtrusive or sales-ey.

But that's me.

[imaginator]

the times this has worked for me have generally been in friendly conversation after a session (when there's time for any). i only remember one or two times i actually got anything from an email inquiry.

with emails, i've had better luck getting referrals from other talent, who steer me to producers i might not have encountered. of course, it's understood i'm not after their work. and they know i'll share in kind.
_________________
rowell gormon
www.voices2go.com
"Mr. Warm & Friendly Voice...with Character!"
Rowell Gormon's Clogged Blog - http://voices2go.com/blog

[Philip Banks]

Whilst we sell ourselves, we are not Salespeople and we adopt their methods to our prefessional detriment.

I know one VO who does a business training course in the morning and offers how to succeed marketing your VO career in the form of a newsletter in the afternoon. I bear this lady no ill-will, quite the opposite, she is one of the nicest people I have ever met. Her c'reer guidance in well-intentioned but a bit like a Sax player teaching a Diver circular breathing.

"I think that's cool dude but y'all better not try where I work!"

Well intentioned ignorance is still ignorance.

[jsgilbert]

It's like anything else. You learn something and practice it and get "good" at it. However, what many people may be learning and practicing could be of quite dubious value.

This can be the case regarding one's actual craft and/or any of the myriad tasks that one does in conjunction with their craft.

One reason why many producers, directors and agency folks refer me is because I refer them. I frequently pass along opportunities and when the big dot com bust hit here, I went out of my way to try and find work for the people who had been good enough to hire me over the years and were now in a bad way.

I also serve on a dozen or so boards and organizations that directly support the individuals who hire me. Donating a few thousand hours of my time as the Bay Area ADDY awards chair may have gone unnoticed by 90% of the overworked advertising community, but for the 10% who did notice, it may have helped me.

Bringing opportunities to my agents and working to get other talent hired has helped a bit too. A particular talent who referred me to some decent business a long time ago is on the top of my casting and hiring list.

Oddly, most of the talent I have been instrumental in getting work, not only haven't reciprocated, but haven't done a blessed thing to acknowledge me. As a human being, I appreciate when soeone does something, anything to let me know that my involvement was appreciated. A young lady I got some work for sent me a rubber band shooter and a hand written thank you note after she worked a job I referred her to.

That was 3 years ago and I still remember. She sends me a card every 6 months to let me know what she's up to and actually sent me a couple of referrals too. She's toward the top of my list these days.

Referral marketing goes much deeper. It should involve anyone and everyone that you positively interact with. Whether your insurance agent, dry cleaners or the father of one of your kid's playmates, these people should all know what you do and how to "pitch" you. Better yet, you should be able to extract from these individuals the names of people they have a "sphere of influence" with. You never know who the friend of a firendof a friend may be.

I have done a couple of podcasts that you can find online all over the place by googling my name. I also reciommend any of the "Guerilla" books by Jay Cionrad Levinson and also the book by Salli Rasberry and Phillips, "Mareeting Without Advertising".

If anyone wants to contact me personally regarding marketing, I'm happy to give you any advice or perhaps answer specific questions.

I don't sell anything or teach classes, so there's no pitch. It's just something I know a little about.
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j.s. gilbert

js@jsgilbert.com
www.jsgilbert.com

"today is the first day of the rest of the week"

[Mike Harrison]

Yes, my request was in the form of an email. I made my request of this production house that I've been affiliated with for over 10 years. And I completely understand that making referrals isn't a top priority for anyone. But, as I said, what does it take to shoot a quick reply that says, "Let me get back to you?" Still, I'll patiently wait to see what happens.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no salesperson. Voice-over people's work (in the form of demos) generally sells itself. And actually, most of the sales types I've met and worked with are the smarmy, manipulative type who wouldn't think twice about selling their own mother. So I'm not eager to be grouped with the likes of that. Yet, I agree that as sole business proprietors, we have to sell our services, because no one's going to do it for us, unless we have the ability to pay them.

There is every possibility, I suppose, that the advice to ask clients for referrals was wrong, at least in today's marketplace. So, with regard to what is taught in the innumerable VO seminars these days, I'm inclined to believe that there is only a finite amount of fact. Beyond that, it's just opinion. And what works for one may not work for another.

Now where did I put my Ouija board?
_________________
Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.

[Michael Schoen]

I love referrals, of course, but I only seek them when the client opens the door as part of a conversation.
I agree with the notion that you please the client --- give him more than he expects and there could be a referral automatically. And sometimes in conversation you can get in the fact that you specialize in or have done this or that type of VO in the past. Then when this or that comes up, he might think of you.
But I don't think your emails were damaging.
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http://MichaelSchoen.com

[Philip Banks]

[jsgilbert]

Mike,

As far as opinion goes, I'll go you one better and say that there is no "truth" and only perception.

Perhaps because I have either been at this for so long, or because in addition to acting I've done a fair amount of casting and hiring talent that I tend to always give the benefit of the doubt to the folks that are the clients.

As a talent, when I conclude a project, my mind is always thinking "Thank you for flying Air Gilbert, we know you have a lot of choices when it comes to voice talent..."

Perhaps it should be enough that I get to do what I love and get paid well for it and leave the remainder of the expectations out of the equation. Then again, I'm only human and lately, some of my posts are about my not receiving credit for work I have performed, in instances where it is usual and customary to receive credit. 13 episodes of Go Bananas for Nick.com, Tons of work on EA's Dante's Inferno and most recently performing all of the voices for the new iPhone Spiderman game.

It would have been nice to have gotten the credit, but in the end, my complaints are simply my way of giving myself credit for the work. Hopefully someone will stumble across one of my posts, or somebody will pick up on one of my posts and do a review or otherwise blog about it, etc.

As for being a salesperson, whether you think you are or think you aren't, every time you audition, send an inquiry or even work on improving your craft, you are expressing part of the salesman's trade.

One's ability to exceed in anything, in particular a creative pursuit like voice over, often has a lot to do with how we handle the millions of chores that we do that are part and parcel of being able to practice our craft (get paid for it).

If you think selling is smarmy, and you reject the notion that sales is part of what you do, then you have severely limited your ability to work. Even if you say that your agents are responsible for your opportunities, surely you would understand the necessity to "sell" your agents on you as a viable commodity.
As for the rest of it, having any expectations from clients that are greater than you getting paid for "work for hire", will almost lead to disappointment.

I used to think it was callous and lacked professionalism when I would run into people I had worked for and they didn't remember me, until the shoe was on the other foot and I honestly couldn't remember voice talent that I had hired, directed and/or produced.

There could be a million reasons for someone not responding back to a referral request, in which case their silence may be the actual "courtesy". Although I would go along with the general consensus of this being a relatively low priority item and something that they perhaps were hoping to return to, but more than likely forgot.

Lastly, I would say that marketing and sales are about sustained efforts and consistency. In gaming, one might contact a potential client 50 times only to hear no and then happen to get the 50th contact made on the magic day that they have been asked to consider dialog production.

Just as with an audition, the best advice is to forget it and move on.
_________________
j.s. gilbert

js@jsgilbert.com
www.jsgilbert.com

"today is the first day of the rest of the week"

[Mike Harrison]

Agreed, Michael. I don't even ask for a copy of a finished production until some sort of relationship has been formed, or unless a session went particularly well and a good time was had by all. There have been some sessions after which I wouldn't ask for the time of day

Philip said: