VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[cyclometh]

Not exactly VO-related but I bet someone here has some info...

My mother likes to visit estate sales, garage sales and thrift stores. She also knows that I'm a bit of an audio junkie; I love old audio gear and especially old media, like ancient records and such.

Today she gave me a couple of things she thought were records but turned out to be electric transcription discs. One was unlabeled but the other was hand-written and had a name on it. I was actually able to contact the person and he indicated that it was in fact him, recording in 1966 on an old vinyl-string guitar. He also said that he didn't want them back, as he wasn't very good at playing the guitar.

Anyway, it got me thinking. I know how to handle transcription discs- that is, not at all without gloves and as little as possible- but I don't have gear to play them back. I have a turntable, a really nice Panasonic from the early 1990s- thing is built like a brick, but I don't think it's got the proper stylus for playing such discs.

Can I make my current turntable into an archival one with the purchase of some different styli or do I need to look into a specific type of turntable? I have a number of other records I'd like to record, and I think it would be interesting to be able to record some of the old victrola records I've got kicking about, and I know I can't play those properly on a modern turntable.

So does anyone have recommendations on a decent, affordable turntable that's flexible enough to be speed-adjustable and accept a wide range of styli?
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[bobsouer]

Corey,

I'm pretty sure you would need an 18" transcription turntable to play that back. I have no idea (eBay?) where you might find one or how much it would cost.
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Bob Souer (just think of lemons)
The second nicest guy in voiceover.
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[Ed Gambill]

Corey

I have been told by folks with first hand experience that the stylus of a transcript player move in a different way than a regular turn table.

Ed
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[heyguido]

Corey....

Got pics?

I worked in RCA Studio 3 in Nashville during the late 70s with Randy Kling, one of the legends of disc mastering....

Based on your description, what you most likely have would be described as a "lacquer".... an original nitrocellulose master disc, cut on a mastering lathe. Based on the era of the recording, it most likely has an aluminum core surrounded by a coating of nitrocellulose lacquer. Earlier (40s) discs were encased in actual glass, though those are becoming very rare.

You are correct in assuming it to be very fragile. Fingerprints (and their oils) can eat right through the lacquer. Environmental factors can also degrade the lacquer, so proper storage is critical.

While your turntable might be able to play the disc, a conventional stylus can severely damage the surface, even with only one play. A half dozen plays would be enough to ruin them completely. Conventional stylii are too narrow for the grooves on the disc, and tend to wallow around in the grooves, gouging out pieces of the walls as they travel down them. IF you could find a stylus in the 2-3 mil range, you might be able to play them, but most tonearms still exert too much pressure. True transcription arms run around $2k, and are often supplemented by a horsehair brush to aid in tracking.

You may be able to find a studio in your area which still has old mastering gear on hand. They might be able to assist in transcribing your discs to digital, which would preserve their content without destroying the discs.

Here's a link for more info.....

http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Resources_Disc_Transcription.htm
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Don Brookshire
"Wait.... They wanna PAY me for this?"

[todd ellis]

this is a DANGED interesting thread!
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"i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?

[ccpetersen]

Wow. I think we still have lacquers of my DH's first album. Will have to check that out. Not that we ever played 'em... they told us to keep them safe.

[cyclometh]

I'll post pics of them later today when I get home. I collect funky old audio stuff- not gear as much as old records and media because I find it fascinating how many ways we've recorded sound in our history.

These discs are standard LP size, aluminum with a black lacquer of some type and based on my experience and knowledge I believe them to be transcription discs. The grooves are there but they appear to be much shallower than most LP grooves and I can't make a judgement as to their size. One disc holds 8 tracks, the other is unlabeled and I didn't count the tracks on it.

I'd love to get the audio off, but I'd also love to be able to get ahold of the equipment to handle these and similar stuff. I'm not able to spend thousands for a 16" turntable, but if I can adapt my current table (which has a servo-controlled tonearm with a pretty good range of pressure) or get a deal on one that I can use, awesome. Otherwise I'll look around and see if I can get them transcribed and just hang onto the originals.

The last thing I want to do is damage them!
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[cyclometh]

And an addendum- at least the labeled one was recorded for home use, as the guy I spoke to said his mother wanted recordings of him playing the guitar before he went off to college. He said she was the only one who liked his playing, heh.

So my guess is these were recorded to be played back on conventional audio gear or at least to be less delicate- from my research I know some "personal" transcription discs were made with less of the plasticizer in them that causes them to degrade because they were more durable for playback that way.

I have no intention of risking them on conventional gear, however. They may be old and funky recordings of a 18 year old kid singing Peter Paul and Mary really badly on a nylon string guitar, but it's the principle of the thing that I prefer to keep them intact as interesting pieces in and of themselves.
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[heyguido]

If you dig thru the site I linked above, you'll find some modified Ortofon cartridges that you can get. The trick is knowing what size stylus you need, as a poorly fitting stylus will cause more damage than necessary in the fragile grooves. From what you describe, your turntable and arm may be able to track properly if you can adjust the arm as you mentioned. Might be worth a conversation with them, at the very least. They're good guys, and they know their stuff.

Well familiar with the discs you describe. For a period, many musical archivists carried those same lathes and lacquers into the farthest corners of the country, documenting the blues, bluegrass, and folk music. You can find some of them in the Smithsonian's collection. They also saw use in in small recording booths that showed up in tourist areas, like Coney Island, amusement parks, and beach towns. I've got a few of those recorded by family members, including one of my mom announcing to the distant family "We're gonna have a BABY!!!!".

Eventually, magnetic recording brought us Nagra's, then DAT, and now flash recorders.... and Beau uses an iPad....

Wonders never cease.
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Don Brookshire
"Wait.... They wanna PAY me for this?"

[cyclometh]

I'll check that site out, thanks. The turntable I have is a Panasonic- can't recall the model number, but it's got a servo-controlled tonearm that tracks linearly and an adjustable weight that can go down to around 1.7 grams, I believe.

It's got a Shure cartridge on it now. I'm also looking into a decent used transcription turntable or finding a studio around here with one that'd be willing to lift the tracks for me.

Thanks for the input and feedback!
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[cyclometh]

I lied, it's a Pioneer, not a Panasonic. Here's a picture of an identical one I found online somewhere. Tracking force can go down to 1.7 grams, so I think it's probably too much for this application even with the proper stylus.


_________________
Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[heyguido]

Actually, the linear tracking table might work.... Though the arm is not as sophisticated as a pro unit, the linear aspect is superior to an angled arm for this purpose.... and though the pressure regulation is not perfect, you might be able to assist tracking with a horsehair brush to bring it closer to spec. The trick is to make sure the stylus follows the groove, rather than bashing thru it. That's where the damage can occur.
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Don Brookshire
"Wait.... They wanna PAY me for this?"

[cyclometh]

I've considered modding it to be variable speed and having a wider range of weight/tracking force (probably by the simple expedient of small weights on the rear of the tonearm to counterbalance it). In the end I'd like to be able to pull tracks off of some of the records I have that simply can't be played on normal turntables.
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[cyclometh]

Turns out my little brother has a transcription turntable! I'm waiting to hear what kind and maybe arrange a little trade because he's been eyeballing an oak table of mine for a while now...
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
http://voxman.net

[jerrysvoice]

The electrical transcriptions usually use a 2.7 mil stylus (78 rpm groove) Stanton used to make a stylus for their 500, 600 and 800 series cartridges. For a mono record produced in the 1950s and 60s there's another stylus size, usually 1.5 mil.