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georgethetech · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:32 am Post subject: (new) Skype vs. Source Connect

In case you are interested in my take on the Opus codec update to Skype,
Please clicky linky.

There's an audio sample in there, too.
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todd ellis · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:13 am Post subject:

i agree - definitely good enough for radio/cable TV spots - probably most eLearning too.

are they adding the compression to compensate for something other than bit rate? or am i a complete idiot? maybe both?
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Bruce · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:41 am Post subject:

I'm not a tech guy nor would I even be considered to play one on TV, but I'm wondering if the compression or limiting is to keep the size of the audio "signal" down? Does higher audio volume add to the bandwidth required? Either that or it's meant to keep over modulated distortion at bay.

Anyway it's amazing how quickly they're approaching broadcast quality. Someone's going to do it soon. I would not want to invest in the Telos or Source Connect companies for the long term right now.

B
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I'm not a Zoo, but over the years I've played one on radio/TV. .

Rob Ellis · M&M Joined: 01 Aug 2006 Posts: 2385 Location: Detroit

Yea but once Skype gets to the same level as SC (they're close to my ear),
I question whether it will be as free or low cost as it has been.

Compared to ISDN SC is a bargain in my opinion. I got the upgraded Standard version last month, and the quality and speed have been impressive.

graemespicer · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:00 am Post subject:

+1 Rob. I love Source-Connect, and have never had any issues with glitches, latency, etc.
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georgethetech · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:50 am Post subject:

Frank F has this to add:

Bish · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:53 am Post subject:

Oh my.

Frank F · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:16 pm Post subject:

I was not aware George would post my PM to him, but to further answer his and Bish's questions; I add this:

Adding the Opus codec to Mac OS and iOS is a chore (let me tell you). It requires a wholly different coding due to the Apple infrastructure. This is not a Win v. Mac thing - it is just practical. Coding Opus into Java is actually simple, but computer coders have been warned Apple is trying to get rid of Java for it's OS.

I am testing out a "something new" I mentioned later today with a friend in Denver, CO and will post an excerpt tomorrow to hear and SEE how Opus should sound. One thing to look for is a full spectrum (20Hz to 20kHz_ audio spectrum with Opus. SILK has limitations of 16 kHz and lacks body - SILK was designed for internet speech and is not stereo capable either.

One article mentioned by George writes about Audio Compass, which was created here in Utah also. Watch for this ditty to become a strong performer against SC in the future.

There are several more implementations of RTC which include Opus in the works. Firefox, Internet Explorer, and Chrome now use it natively in their browsers. Apple is slow to adopt Opus in favor of their HE-AAC (MPEG 4) branded codec for Safari.

Frank F
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georgethetech · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject:

I updated my blog post with a comment as well to make sure it had the accurate information about Opus. Things are really starting to move pretty fast in these developments! I think I have my finger on the pulse of this stuff and then I hear about things like Audio Compass or Luci, that have been around for a while, and I wonder where they've been! Just shows how hardware/software companies that cater to broadcast completely ignore the VO industry in terms of marketing.

There are many systems that are or could be strong performers against Source Connect, but again, if they don't market, penetrate and cater to the VO studio industry...

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
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Bob Stevens · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject:

Opus is cool.

SILK... sounds a bit like Stephen Hawking esp at lower sample rates.

Bob
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heyguido · Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject:

Opus is awesomely cool, Would that we could all have it now.

SILK.... Not so much. It was never intended, as Frank properly points out, for full spectrum audio, but to improve the intelligibility of speech. At higher rates, it approximates FM. For FM radio, it's probably serviceable. For anything else.... Meh.

I"m real eager to hear Frank's yet to be announced new contender. The space is about to bust open, not necessarily for VO's benefit, but simply because the technology is on our doorstep, TV's jumping from 1080p to 4K.... And audio's right behind.

As bandwidth and throughput increase, this will be a no-brainer. The trick, however, is managing the packets. Which is why my money is on Google in the long run. I've heard rumors of a skunkworks team that is working on improving the quality of Google Hangouts on G+.... and high fidelity is on the list of goals.
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georgethetech · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:17 am Post subject:

Google Hangouts already has a wide bandwidth, stereo codec mode for bands who want to do private concerts to their fans (was the initial intention).
It's called "Studio mode", read more:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/13/3239789/google-studio-mode-hangouts-on-air

Yes, things in IP codec land area really starting to heat up. There is nothing stopping mobile phone call quality from achieving these levels of quality now, other than profit motive.
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If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
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VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder

Frank F · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject:

My client says "wait" until the show is aired to put the sample up - so I will.

Google is on the forefront of the revolution of audio via the internet and Opus codec is right there with them. A new breed of "web socket" audio is coming and it promises things which should be very interesting for the VO world; no downloading software or a Hobo Tounge

s, HD video, HQ audio multi-channel, broadcast one to one or one to many peers, and more.

The days of ISDN dominance are numbered. I predicted seven years ago that ISDN would meet it's demise within ten years. I may have been right. Structured, cloistered, privatized, communicating are being replaced by the new P2P/SIP connections and I am happy to way we (the public) are the beneficiaries.

The stopping point for mobile phones is not just a "profit margin" but in what is needed by the many outweighs the requests of the few. Bandwidth is still a factor on non-IP phones no matter they be 3G or 4G or 5G of whatever. As I mentioned; Google is already addressing this with citywide internet wireless links for free in some cities. I cannot wait for this idea to spread nationwide.

Frank F
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heyguido · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject:

Google Hangouts Studio Mode uses the CELT codec.... and reduces video quality in order to accommodate higher quality audio.

CELT is not lossless, and uses a compression algorithm to achieve "full spectrum" audio equal to or greater than 20khz, according to their claims. NOT lossless.... and compressed.... so not so great for VO.... Also, latency rates typically run from 5 to 22ms at bit rates from 8khz to 48khz.

CELT was recently incorporated into Opus, along with SILK. Opus is still in development, and recently released an alpha of version 1.1.

Google is said to be working on replacing CELT with Opus, but to my understanding, is still testing prior to release.
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Frank F · Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:13 pm Post subject:

CELT and SPEEX are now discontinued and not supported. OPUS is finalized, but renditions are available and there is/are experimental (stereo and multi-channel) versions being tinkered with - I am one who is tinkering. (Know anyone who is really good at JAVA?)

CELT was a lossy codec like MPEG II Layer III and others (losing information above 13.5, 14, and 15 to 16k depending upon bandwidth available) and has much better sounding lows and mids than SILK.

SILK is also a lossy codec and in Skype's case only uses the 16k version, not the 24k version available.

OPUS is a loss-less codec (losing information only above 20 kHz).

You are so right on target. Watch for G+ to incorporate OPUS within 3Q this year. OPUS is actually implemented in mono. but no widespread acceptance yet and is/may be a paid "plus" in the beginning.

Frank F
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