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Looking at the Jim Williams High Speed Mic Pre? Check it!
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is NO re-design of the actual circuit on the HSMP card. Just upgraded and matched capacitors and resistors with new MATCHED FET's. The actual card is no different than the stock card - but due to the upgraded components the response time is faster.

Assume it takes two hours to replace the parts and $20.00 in actual components. Now re-design the entire pre-card, burn the board and put a price tag on the totally new PC board. What would you charge?

Redesigning the card would necessitate re-designing the entire product including all other PC cards and transformers, etc. Together that project would cost much more than $250.00/unit in time alone.

One small microphone transformer can cost upwards of $250.00 each. There are two transformers on the standard pre card. Do you think the transformers are being replaced?

Hope that helps.

Frank F
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Last edited by Frank F on Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 12 Aug 2011
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Location: In the souls of a million jeans

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a completely different card though. It's not designed for the DBX. It is a HSMP card that is retrofitted into the DBX and the signal is rerouted through the new card.

I'm sorry, am I thinking about this wrong? It sounds like you are talking about just replacing components in the original board and I am talking about replacing the board with a completely different one.
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The PC board is purchased for $13.00 and available online; if you know where to look.

Add better than original components and what do you have? A new card. with your name on it. Is it a re-designed circuit/card? No.

When I design a circuit board it usually requires about 200 hours. Especailly if it needs to meet and match other components of an entire circuit.

I cannot order just one board made I have to order about 50 minimum. Then I need to stock the board, and test and test until I can make sure it meets my specs. If I were to sell my boards, would I want to charge just $250.00? Not on your life.

Hope that helps.

FF

Addendum: if it is a "retrofit" then it was likely a premade component by someone else for another product or a standalone pre-amp. Again PC board: cheap; components: cheap, time to repopulate the baord: limited.

F2
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Jason Huggins
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Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: In the souls of a million jeans

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a separate preamp board, but I see what you mean about it meeting and matching other components. May indeed be better just to pass until I can drop the cash.

Tell me this...ultimately, is the difference between a DBX 286a and a HSMP (the actual $1500 preamp not a mod) more like the last 5% in great sound, or is the sound useably night and day different? (this is assuming a mic that pairs well with ones voice and both preamps...big assumption, but just for the purpose of understanding the difference between decent and high-end preamps).
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Frank F
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Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have kind of answered you own questions. Is it better? That is for your ears (and your clients) to decide. How do you determine improvement, what is your criteria?

Matching a mic to a preamp is not as simple as saying "buy this microphone and that preamp". Each microphone has it's own Color, Cut, and Clarity. Each preamp has it own power distribution factor, color, grunge, and feel. Even within the same manufacturers products.

Once you have the above standards chosen; you need to add the color of the cables and soundcard (inclusive of all input devices), the color of the recording/editing software and of course the room or environment in which you record.

What is required is to play with as many microphones and preamps as possible with your current cables, soundcard, editing software, etc. in place.

Addressing the issue of wether or not one preamp is better than another, the answer is yes and no. Is spending lots of money on an untried preamp with your current microphone and chain a good idea. NO! What makes a good sound chain a good sound cain is an personal process. I can suggest what makes a good chain for me and what has worked well for others, but I can only speculate about what is right for you.

I can also tell you why one preamp will not preform as well as another with one mic or another but ultimately, it is up to you and your ears --- and wallet what you buy and why, not mine or any other person.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. is my motto with audio equipment purchases. What follows is: If you cannot improve your audio chain sound by more than 50% in color, cut, and clarity, is the new toy worth the purchase price?

Frank F
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Bob Stevens
Contributore Level V


Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Orange County, California

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason,

Frank has some very valid points.

I was interested to hear your review if/when purchased because Jim told me that his card mods are not quite up to par with the 2 ch racked HSMP and rightfully so. Primarily due to the quality of the electronics of the gear that the card is being placed in.

Now, I don't think Jim would put a HSMP card in something that wouldn't benefit from the mod. To do a mod that does nothing makes no sense.

Do I think if I modded my 286 with a HSMP it will sound as good or be as quiet as my rack unit? Nope. But how close will it be....? Or how much better will the 286 sound? Will it be worth the $250? Plus the convenience of the 286 effects. I am curious.

I love a good conundrum!

A dollar figure correction from previous posts... The 2ch rack HSMP cost is $1500 or $750 per channel. You are at $330 plus shipping both ways for the mod. So, $750 vs say $360 and for what level of benefit? I am still curious.

Bob
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dbeers
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013
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Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have personally heard Jim's HSMP card (although not in a 286), and it's sounds very very impressive. This is a small card, not the exact same boards in his 2 ch. racked HSMP. Jim has one in a plain grey project box, on his work bench… and it sounds spectacular.

I have also borrowed his racked 2 ch. HSMP and it's cleanest pre I've ever heard. The slew rate is very fast (thus the High Speed name), because he uses components meant for broadband video… but puts audio through them in a very different design way. I got to use the 2 ch. racked HSMP in my studio… and heard the (smaller) HSMP card at his place. So not side by side… but I can say they have a very similar sound.

It's my understanding they use many of the same components. The cost is less, because there's no power supply, no case, no stepped gain pots, no costly engraving on the face plate. That's why he's not making the 2 ch racked units anymore.

But he'll put his new (smaller) HSMP card into almost anything you have. He offered to put it in an old Symetrix 528 I have, but it's not worthy of his card in my opinion. Basically he'll put it anything with pulse (or power supply). I would think it would be great in the 286 and worth the price (especially if you already have the DBX).

Finally, I have never been happier with the gear he's modded for me. Got one more compressor to give him to do, when funds permit. It's not something I really need to get done… but I know it will come back as a spectacular piece of equipment that will be useful, instead of just sitting in the rack with the power off everyday.

I hope that helps clarify the difference between his HSMP card vs 2 ch each HSMP. Well worth the price of admission.
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 12 Aug 2011
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Location: In the souls of a million jeans

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All interesting comments.

Ultimately, I hear a crispness...almost "crunchy" unrefined tone in the DBX that Jim believes would be smoothed out significantly by the mod.

Here is an audio sample of what I'm talking about. I'd love to hear your thoughts Frank. Both on this mic for my voice and my interpretation of the preamp qualities. Both samples are the same mic, one is recorded with the stock pre in the Audient iD22 and the other is the DBX 286a into the converter only on the Audient. Both have a the same software HPF applied at 63hz. I know it isn't a 100% accurate test, but I matched the loudness levels to within 0.1 LUFS

http://therealcoolguy.com/audio/PreampTest.wav

Just as a side note, the only reason I am using the DBX is because the iD22 HPF is 100hz (too high IMO) and I need the HPF active for SC sessions. If the iD22 HPF was lower, I'd just use its pre because I find it more balanced and clean. Really, this would all be a moot point if I knew how to alter the HPF on the iD22 Smile
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple thoughts: It is not the pre as much as it is mic placement which is giving you the "crispness" and grunge. cant place the mic (as I am not in my studio at the moment), but the capsule could be a bit shrill and brittle also when worked as you are.

I hear the brittleness in the hard consonants at the beginning of some words. To get a better idea of whether or not it is the pre or the mic which is causing the effect, try moving the microphone. I suggest about two inches up from your mouth and not aimed directly in front. Aim to the nose, not the mouth. Then talk softly at about eight inches from the microphone. Then record another file and add projection (louder/more forceful). And another even stronger.

If you still have the brittleness in each file do it all again moving the microphone accordingly. If you still have brittleness at 12" it is the microphone. If you are still shrill or hear too much crispiness or grunge.. it is the preamp.

Frank F
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dwpthe3rd
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Joined: 28 Feb 2010
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Location: Where palm trees meet pines

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

soundgun wrote:
Why does one need such a speedy preamp? How fast can you possibly talk?


I can speak and be heard at the speed of sound!
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


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Location: In the souls of a million jeans

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give it a shot and report back. I'm using a Michael Joly modded NT1a. It is usually positioned about 5 inches above my mouth, 3 inches to the left, pointing towards my nose and about 6 inches away.
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the Joly mod adds so much gain (almost 30% volume increase over a stock NT1A) backing off another two to three inches would be optimal. This will allow the diaphragm accept your strength of voice rather than fighting it.

The other parts of your description for mic placement are right on target.

Frank F
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heyguido
MMD


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 2507
Location: RDU, the Geek Capitol of the South

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every once in a while, the planets align just so, and allow a peek inside the closet of accumulated wisdom....

Luvs me some Frank. Inoccent
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: In the souls of a million jeans

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Frank. I guess I just need to learn how to use my gear better. Just pushing the mic back a few inches did smooth things out a bit. Two places in particular, on the word 'psoriasis' and 'immune.' I also am noticing some nuances of my delivery that can be refined to smooth things out as well. Some of that brittleness and "distortion" that I was hearing is my own vocal technique!

Lesson learned: It's probably not the gear, it's how it is used.

I think I'll just mod the Audient HPF so it is not 100hz (since I confirmed that it is hardware with Audient) and use the pre on the interface since is sounds better to my ear.

Thanks Frank. You have not only saved me money, but also taught me some valuable stuff!
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Zach Meissner
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Joined: 01 Feb 2013
Posts: 132
Location: Husker Nation aka Nebraska

PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too have experienced this type of issue with my E100s and DBX 286a, thank you Frank for the diagnosis!

I will give it a try and hopefully that should help with the same issue.

Thanks much!
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