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Dave S
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 Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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This IS very educational for me. Steve, since I don't have a Limiter function ( I use Sound Forge Audio Studio, not the full version), I have used the Normalizing to boost up my volume. In H. Hogan's THe Voice Actor's Guide to Home Recording, he uses compresssion, then normalizes. He states to " get as close to digital zero as you can get without clipping" and to "peak normalize to -0.10 dB." (I'm not arguing, just confused) So, with my system's limitations, should I use my "dynamic" function, (which I guess is a single channel compression?) to even out peaks, then boost the signal with that instead of normalizing? What finshed output level do you strive for?
Another question - if I record a single track at say, -3 peak, is that better or worse than recording at -18dB, then processing it up to -3dB? Does the processing corrupt the file in any way?
Thanks to all for your posts, I am learning alot.
Dave S |
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Yoda117
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Joined: 20 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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if I may interject a comment that seems OT, but is actually very relevant.
If you have the spare $, are itching to spend some money, but are happy with your current setup. Then by all means, please take the time to procure an ANSI certified set of VU meters (I prefer a dedicated rackmount display, Dorrough or Coleman Audio are personal favs).
It makes a lot of this work much easier, and despite all appearances, not all the VU meters in the application programs normally used for VO measure level properly.
Especially when working with HW compressors and limiters, EQs and the like, it saves you much time and aggrivation IMHO.
Just my $0.02
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| sdelgo wrote: | | In limiting you can set a threshhold above the overall noise floor so you don't amplify the noise too. |
aaaaaahhhhh! That's the part I missed. I didn't know a limiter allowed you to boost signals above a certain thershold. I will definitely give this a shot because this means I can boost the good stuff and leave the noise where it is. In theory if I run a noise reduction pass AFTER I run the limiter, there will be less sound degradation from the NR pass.
Cool, more fun stuff to play with tonight!
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Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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sdelgo
Contributor IV
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave S wrote: | This IS very educational for me. Steve, since I don't have a Limiter function ( I use Sound Forge Audio Studio, not the full version), I have used the Normalizing to boost up my volume. In H. Hogan's THe Voice Actor's Guide to Home Recording, he uses compresssion, then normalizes. He states to " get as close to digital zero as you can get without clipping" and to "peak normalize to -0.10 dB." (I'm not arguing, just confused) So, with my system's limitations, should I use my "dynamic" function, (which I guess is a single channel compression?) to even out peaks, then boost the signal with that instead of normalizing? What finshed output level do you strive for?
Another question - if I record a single track at say, -3 peak, is that better or worse than recording at -18dB, then processing it up to -3dB? Does the processing corrupt the file in any way?
Thanks to all for your posts, I am learning alot.
Dave S |
with no limiter and depending on the material you're recording you'd really want to record as clean and with evenly matched levels on each track as possible (no clipping) and adjust each tracks level before mixdown to get the overall program level to a point where there is still some headroom left. Remember each additional track that overlaps the previous tracks boost the overall level of the entire mix.
I put up a small demo for you and anybody else thats interested.
http://www.steviedproductions.com/vobb
I recorded this radio spot about 14 months ago. 1 vocal composite and 1 synth composite... both recorded near -18dbfs average... once mixed, it boosted the average to around -15dbfs to -12dbfs range. to make it louder i compressed the high end and ran a limiter to start limiting at -29dbfs and boost all the way to -6dbfs. It's loud enough and there is 6db of headroom left for any colorazation eqing or reverb.
I strive for an output level at about -6dbfs.
Recording any material higher than -18dbfs CAN and SOMETIMES does introduce "digital artifacts" when processing the signal (pops,clicks,screeches ect...) I guess it all depends on the type of processing you doing. It's happened to me a few times.
If you have anymore questions or would like to send me some files of your material to run it through a limiter etc... so you can hear it on your stuff let me know.
Steve
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sdelgo
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Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| JeffreyKafer wrote: | | sdelgo wrote: | | In limiting you can set a threshhold above the overall noise floor so you don't amplify the noise too. |
aaaaaahhhhh! That's the part I missed. I didn't know a limiter allowed you to boost signals above a certain thershold. I will definitely give this a shot because this means I can boost the good stuff and leave the noise where it is. In theory if I run a noise reduction pass AFTER I run the limiter, there will be less sound degradation from the NR pass.
Cool, more fun stuff to play with tonight! |
Jeff,
Now you're starting to get the picture  I'm not a big fan of noise reduction in digital due to the fact of the giant signal to noise ratio digtal offers. If you are having trouble with noisy recordings... make sure your mixer is calibrated correctly (mixer pre-amps aren't up too high etc...) If it's hum and buzz try re-arranging your cables or get a power conditioner or unplug the "wall warts" they are great for adding hum into a signal path. If it's background noise from using the mic a hardware gate can solve that for you.
Steve
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you'll always have something on your plate... if you keep your bearings straight.
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sdelgo
Contributor IV
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Yoda117 wrote: | if I may interject a comment that seems OT, but is actually very relevant.
If you have the spare $, are itching to spend some money, but are happy with your current setup. Then by all means, please take the time to procure an ANSI certified set of VU meters (I prefer a dedicated rackmount display, Dorrough or Coleman Audio are personal favs).
It makes a lot of this work much easier, and despite all appearances, not all the VU meters in the application programs normally used for VO measure level properly.
Especially when working with HW compressors and limiters, EQs and the like, it saves you much time and aggrivation IMHO.
Just my $0.02 |
I couldn't agree more Yoda.
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you'll always have something on your plate... if you keep your bearings straight.
www.steviedproductions.com |
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| sdelgo wrote: | | If it's hum and buzz try re-arranging your cables or get a power conditioner or unplug the "wall warts" they are great for adding hum into a signal path. If it's background noise from using the mic a hardware gate can solve that for you |
It's the computer fan. I haven't been able to isolate the mic enough to eliminate that. So I usually run a NR pass and it cleans up nicely.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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sdelgo
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Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Those darn compters... they make life easier and then they make it tough on you at times as well.
Steve
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Alrighty, I pose a challenge to you. See if you can get the following raw sound file to be compressed and noise free using the limiter method. Straight narration, no hiding noise with your radio imaging effects and spatialization!
I could not get the sound I wanted using the limiter. The limiter would kick in during quiet areas, but when I spoke, the noise floor would bounce back up. Here's the raw file
http://jeffreyKafer.com/test/test_raw.wav
And here's my final processed file using my compression/normalization/NR process.
http://jeffreyKafer.com/test/test_processed.wav
if you can do it, then I'd LOVE to know exactly what settings you used.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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CWToo
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| When I was working as a producer at Studio Center (for 14 years, dear God!) we would record the voices with only a soft limiter to avoid any unexpected excursions into Distortion Land (or "All Bits On" to the technically inclined). All the other vocal processing was done during the mix. |
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sdelgo
Contributor IV
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Jeff,
Just curious, what is your set-up? (vocal chain, soundcard,daw etc...)
Steve
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sdelgo wrote: | Jeff,
Just curious, what is your set-up? |
AT3035 mic into an Mbox into a windows PC running proTools.
Now, I'm feeling naked and inferior.....
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| CWToo wrote: | | When I was working as a producer at Studio Center (for 14 years, dear God!) we would record the voices with only a soft limiter to avoid any unexpected excursions into Distortion Land (or "All Bits On" to the technically inclined). All the other vocal processing was done during the mix. |
yeah, that's what I learned in my audio production classes (I got a degree in this stuff 12 years ago and we were mostly analog). Record as clean as you can and mess with the mix after.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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sdelgo
Contributor IV
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 143
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I'm asking is this... the files you made have a bad noise situation going on. The noise isn't harmonic distorion type noise but more like an over burdened soundcard noise. The outputs of the mbox goes into the computer's soundcard right?(i'm not at all familiar with the mbox)- If so... what type of soundcard are you using? one that came with the computer or some sort of "pro card" like a delta or m-audio. from listening to those files... not a limiter in the world would correct that noise. I know you said you had an issue with the computer fan but to me it sounds like more is going on there. The processed file has alot of sonic noise due to some sort of noise reduction being used. The program material (your vox) has some noise BUT that not the noise floor we were discussing in the earlier posts.
Steve
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
Location: Location, Location!
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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huh? it sounds fine to me. The Mbox goes into the computer via USB. No soundcard involved.
I have no idea what noise you are talking about.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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