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Bruce
Boardmeister


Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 7964
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What we need is all of these codec manufacturers (hardware or software) to come up with one protocol they can all gear to ... something like the battle between Beta and VHS video players. Sadly, the lesser of the two won that battle.

And sadly while millions of users forced a clear winner between two video formats, there may be (at best) tens of thousands of users waiting for a winner out of many VOIP formats.

Not holding my breath.

B
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ConnieTerwilliger
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3381
Location: San Diego - serving the world

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got out of an ISDN session a few minutes ago and we had about 3 digital hits during the recording. Very unusual - could be the rain we have had over the past couple of days. But, we just redid the paragraphs in question and it didn't really cause a problem, but...
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Charlie Channel
Club 300


Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 356
Location: East Palo Alto, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the box that comes into my room, a CAT-5 cable is attached to a NT-1 adapter.

The NT-1 enables you to use one pair of wires for two data channels. Some gear have the adapter already built in (or at least an option that's installed).

So, I've got a cable (wider than the one that is normally used to attach a plain old telephone to the little box in your room) that normally goes to a ISDN codec via an terminal adapter, either external or internal.

A company named Adtran made (or makes) a device that takes the ISDN circuit and presents jacks for cables used with plain old telephones (the little cable that you plug into your telephone or Fax).

The Adtran device also called a Terminal Adapter (actually, think of it as a termination point). Mine is an Express 3010. At the time (2005) it cost around $300 or so. Since ISDN actually presents you two lines, you get two numbers. I figured if I used the Adtran Express for a couple of years, it would pay for itself. There are, probably, other producers of such devices.

My set up is a cheap kludge, so I've got an external terminal adapter (Eicon NT-1) The ISDN card in my computer (the other termination point) requires in/out from the NT-1. So does the Adtran 3010 (the one I bought doesn't have an internal NT-1).

All I did was put a manual A/B switch (Cat -5 cables in and out) to route the circuit to either the Adran or the ISDN card in my computer. That's it.

Oh, yea. The Adtran device is actually a modem, too. You may recall in the days of AOL ("You've got mail"), we use to dial-in with a modem to send e-mail and chat or transfer files. We attached the modem to our computer using a serial cable. Well, to set up the Adtran, you'll need a serial cable and a computer with a serial port. But, I don't use it as a RS-232 modem device. Modems (phone and Fax) are built into most mother boards these days.

I had just cleaned up my studio a week earlier and disposed of old cables and stuff that I'd "never use again." Of course, I ended up going to Fry's to get a new serial cable that I'd just recycled (they don't even carry them at Office Depot). I needed a serial cable to set up the Adtran Terminal Adapter after I changed my primary telephone number.

The lesson for me is, if it ain't broke ... or ... don't move, not even a twitch!

It's been pain and trial and terror! Wow. Things have changed and I'm getting old.
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ConnieTerwilliger
Triple G


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3381
Location: San Diego - serving the world

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My head hurts...
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Charlie Channel
Club 300


Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 356
Location: East Palo Alto, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ConnieTerwilliger wrote:
My head hurts...


I wish it were only my head!
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce I, et al;

The issue is not VOIP in particular; it IS however the protocols used to affect the transmission of the data (media and text based information) and the multitude of codecs used within each "box" or piece of software.

Do you use SMPP, SOAP, TCP orTLS, UPnP, IPv3, IPv4, IPv5, IPv6, NAT traversal, RTP, HTTP, Server or P2P, SIP, SIMPLE, ICE, TURN, STUN, SIP2, .mp3, AC3, .mp4, aac, Speex, H.323, G722, Registrar, Redirect, PTSN, B2BUA, etc.? Should you allow other companies to trunk to your protocols? Why? Why not?

Each of the companies who developed ISDN codecs and to a large part the newer IP codecs (which are not VOIP - as it is known today) for the talent industries want to OWN their individual piece of the market and become an Apple, Inc.

The technology and standards are available as you suggest. What is needed is to stop the greed of the former ISDN codec manufacturers and the newer IP codec makers from making an isolated solution which only work within their network.

ISDN is dying - most of agree with that statement. The question is how does the user communicate with developers what our needs and wants are?

I pose these questions: If there were an easy to use, inexpensive, quality solution available; what would you pay for it? $30.00 USD per month? $40.00? $50.00? Pay by the minute? Pay by the session?

Would you like to use this software or device to connect to Facebook, Yahoo, AIM, ICQ?

Would you need or want video capabilities?

What else would you like this hypothetical product to do, besides work reliably?

Would you prefer a hardware "box" or piece of software? Most iPhonee's and other mobile device's still do not have the internet bandwidth to handle high quality audio over VOIP, but do you still desire an Android or iOS solution for use on the road, and why?

How soon do you want it?

Frank F
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Bob Stevens
Contributore Level V


Joined: 27 Dec 2012
Posts: 151
Location: Orange County, California

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 for Frank.

I do however think the ISDN replacement market is going to be driven by the studios not by the talent. You will be talking into Dole pineapple cans if that is what the studio uses and you want the work.

As ISDN service begins to diminish in the burbs and becomes no longer cost effective for individual talent, expect a period of tech retraction and trips to rented studios that have ISDN. Remember how it used to be? Ok, Ok I'm old... Studios have been using ISDN long before it became affordable to an individual VO artist. We have been spoiled with the advent of a home studio and cheaper hardware. I think the first isdn codec I purchased was ~$15k -18k.

A 1/4" line in jack (or xlr) to a board is what the engineer starts with. Sure a lot of stuff is going on in DAW's now days but it still starts with a jack. Convincing studios to move away from a reliable standard to adopt a better mouse trap is going to take awhile.

So what is going to move the studios to adopt a new standard? Quality, reliability and money. When your used to sleeping with a 10 anything less is a let down and IP codec current technology is about a 9.x. Can it be a 10? Under a ~1000 miles and with killer bandwidth yes, but at times it can also be an 8. Mainly due to reliability and latency. Would a studio compromise if they could cut their line expenses in half or less, deal with some latency on occasion and have a retake now and them? With equal or even better quality? With a larger pool of talent to draw from? It sounds like a no brainer to me but I don't own a studio. With properly designed software even retakes due to a dropout or corruption could be avoided.

My 2 cents...

I now yield the floor...

Bob
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bobbinbeamo
M&M


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Wherever I happen to be

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My head hurts...


Mine too.
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a lot of ibuprofen and call me in the morning. Rolls Eyes

FF
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bobbinbeamo
M&M


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 2468
Location: Wherever I happen to be

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hurting over this so badly I wrote and posted this:
http://bobbinbeam.com/2013/01/29/atts-isdn-the-unlevel-playing-field-part-1/
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Charlie Channel
Club 300


Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 356
Location: East Palo Alto, CA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobbinbeamo wrote:
Hurting over this so badly I wrote ...


Check you PM.

Ninja
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Charlie
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Dave Waters
Contributor II


Joined: 01 Jan 2011
Posts: 58
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:17 am    Post subject: And, then there is this... Reply with quote

Just got an email from Dave Immer at Digifon:
http://digifon.createsend4.com/t/ViewEmail/j/0F4403EBE5D40505/95855DFC819D70212540EF23F30FEDED

And, the website for Luci Live:
http://www.luci.eu

Interesting.
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Bish
3.5 kHz


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have this strange image of someone fitting a performance V8 engine into a Fiat 500. It's certainly interesting, but (to me) this whole mobile access thing is getting crazier and crazier.

Just because something can be done, it doesn't necessarily mean it should be done. Am I being a Luddite here? There is that possibility of course... and it may well transpire that the industry moves in this direction... but it just seems silly to me.
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I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.
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Charlie Channel
Club 300


Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 356
Location: East Palo Alto, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the question has been answered. Can't beat the price, that's for sure. Now, what am I going to do with my Andriod tablet?
Gasp

Ed: OMG! It'll run on my Galaxy Tab2 ! Gear up! Money Mouth
Hey ... I know that I'm just tryin' to help the economy! But, does this mean mean my 002 Rack, application software, pre's speakers and mixer and control board are obsolete? Dang!

All I'm stuck with and need is talent.

OK. Phillip, you got it right!
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmmmm, the AHobo Tounge for Luci is interesting but not ready for VO. Good for a reporter or interviewer and a low level podcaster - maybe.

On a cellphone or tablet the codecs for better quality audio may not be available (Yes, they say this in their documentation) AND the QOS will automatically drop when the internet bandwidth slows.

Oh, and did I mention that it cannot connect to the standard VOIP codecs like G.722 or GSM? Meaning it cannot connect to Vonage, Google Talk, iTalk, or Skype for that matter.

In the documentation for Luci and L2, it also comments about bandwidth, frequency response, and baud rate and use the same figures. To put it mildly - "they ain't close".

Let's face it folks, sending high quality audio via the cell phone or tablet takes more bandwidth than available through your G4. A wireless (Wi-fi) connection is better and can be faster - but it also adds delay. Under the specifications of AAC (any version) the delay on a hard-wired PC is between 80ms and 240ms, round trip - minimum. Add Wi-fi and this goes to 600ms or higher - one way - depending upon bandwidth.

There is soooooo much more about Luci and L2 that I find interesting in the companies description and different from the facts that this AHobo Tounge is going to be relegated to the "almost file" for me.

In my humble opinion; Luci and Luci 2 are NOT an alternative to ISDN or even Source Connect. These aHobo Tounges may earn the status of Report It or some other standard VOIP software; but that is as far as it goes. The best thing they offer over standard VOIP is better audio codecs and that is not enough.

Frank F
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