VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD!
Where A.I. is a four-letter word.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

PRICE POINT!
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index -> Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
danlenard
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:38 pm    Post subject: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote

Fellow voicers,



I've been doing this off and on for damn near 30 years. I still can't get the hang of price point in this business. There are standard rates and then there is the rate non-union shops are willing to pay. Radio & Television stations pay standard rates. Advertising agencies should and occasionally pay standard rates. Everyone else, (Which is 95% of the business out there for us) is fairly clueless as to what to pay and wants us to "quote" something. You don't quote, they don't consider you. Quote too high and someone less qualified gets the work. quote too low and your eating Mac and cheese. I've learned to to ask for a budget before I quote. That has lost me work.



Getting paid is why I left the business 10 years ago. I thought the internet would change things. More business, but lower pay.



WHo has had success at at the price point game?



Dan Lenard

Buffalo, NY
Back to top
Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew. You took a big topic to discuss. I will give only my opinion - because there are no hard and fast rules.



First - as previously stated - there is NO price point! Unless you consider AFTRA/SAG as the standard. Each market is different as to what it will bear - the same as in any other business.



Second - YOU and only you can decide on what your talent is worth. To mis-quote a famous movie line "... Choose your price wisely".



Third - Do not get caught up in the "...he/she is getting more or less than I am" - game. On the other hand - do not charge too little, thinking - "I will get a bunch of work and then I can raise my rates".



This does not work on several levels. You can always lower your rate, but it is very difficult to raise it. Also, you may get some work, however, you will find that you will have hurt whatever "price-point" there is in your market and probably made some enemies of talent who were getting those gig's prior.



Fourth - and then I will shut-up - Being a Voice Over Talent is not a part time thing for many - it is a full time job. This means you must choose to either make it a business or make it a hobby.



If it is a business to you - then run it as a business. If it's a hobby ... well, we won't go there at this time.



Good luck with your choices - and don't be the one who "chose poorly".



Frank F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
danlenard
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:02 am    Post subject: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote

Thanks Frank!



All logical advice. If you watch "The Apprentice," you get to learn how important "price point" is. With this biz, as you say, there are no rules. You're absolutley right, I have to decide what value my voice has. I don't want to be a "Wal-Mart" talent. I also do not want to join AFTRA or SAG. I guess, with experience in this new "broadband" market, we'll all get a "feeling" for what is right for each client we work with.
Back to top
johnbailey
Contributor II


Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 60
Location: Detroit, MI

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I set my rates about 13 years ago, I calculated it thusly: what is the absolute minimum I can charge and still make a decent living if I did only one job a day? I locked in a lot of clients at that rate. I also have a few who negotiated a lower rate. Now I've found that my baseline has almost doubled, and I'm in the position of having to raise my rates across the board. Most clients don't complain, but I think I'm losing a few. So it looks like I'll have to say goodbye to a couple of long-term, low-paying (but steady) clients. Hopefully my new, higher-rate clients will make up for it. I suppose this is an age-old question that all business people have to answer. If I charge a client XXX dollars and he doesn't bat an eye, than I guess I'm in the ballpark. The ones who balk are probably not going to be quality clients anyway.



On a side note, it's funny how those with the cheaper rates are the biggest pains-in-the-rear. I had one client who only had "a few pickups" for me to recut on a big project I had done. Since the studio he was working through was so sloppily run, I figured I could do the pickups at home, charge him next to nothing, and save him some studio time. Over the next few years, I could have made a full-time job out of just doing his little pickups! It was relentless! I think I recut the whole three hour script, one sentence at a time. I finally got tired of it and bumped his rate to twenty times what he'd been paying. And he still paid me! Except he stiffed me on the last one. It's worth it if he stops bothering me.
_________________
John Bailey Voiceovers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
danlenard
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:17 pm    Post subject: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote

[That has been my expereience too John. Lately however I have found, with the "broadband community" we are now competing with for work, and auditioning for work, no one wants to drop the question first.



Bottom line? "What's your budget?



Right?



Thanks John,



ANyone else?[/b]
Back to top
Andy
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnbailey wrote:




On a side note, it's funny how those with the cheaper rates are the biggest pains-in-the-rear. .




Jesus, ain't that the truth! Just finished up a small MOH for a client in Hollywood...I think.



"I want music...Theme From Swat"

" Wha...?" I muttered.

" You know, from that cop show in the seventies."

"Yes, I know. But you'll have to pay a royalty."

" Why? Who will know?"

"I will. Plus, the artist who did it should be paid for your using his music. Besides, both our asses will be in a sling if ASCAP/BMI does find out. And I'd rather stay out of court over such a small job."



After two days of back and forth on that, we finally settled on a light jazz piece I have in my production library.



Keep in mind, this is a 15 second "All operaters are busy..." thing. Well, for the life of me I can't seem to say that phrase fast enough for him! I've done it four times for him and I think (fingers crossed) he's happy with it.



I've done two hour narrations with maybe three or four pick-ups and drop-ins. But this one takes the cake.!
Back to top
Dennis O'Neill
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Quotes shouldn't be discounted (in my opinion). I tell people to NOT give a standard "$50 per hr." kind of answer, as you have to know the end result. Rather, I suggest to them (students) find out everything, including:



Length of script (END RESULT) - not "how long it should take you".

What's it for? (On-hold v/s national film trailer?)

Where's it airing?

How long?

When do you need it by?

You're supplying the studio?

You've taken care of 'extra production' - or am I?

Distribution - (Sending 15 CDs to China)?

Etc.

---------------why not have a check list ready for that conversation?--------



In an email or faxed quote, you can list all of these and just put 'non - applicable' for the cheap stuff - but I think it's important to show them the considerations you have to take as a pro.



Bottom line, what's your TIME worth? IF it's a 90 second script, that's tantamount to 3 x 30 sec. scripts. If you charge $50 per :30 (many do) then that's $150 - IF it's just a no-nonsense, cold read.

If it turns out that it's running all over the place, on TV, etc., then obviously use the union rates as a 'guide', and work within the budget if you / they can.



"What's your budget?" Is probably the best question - but after you know what's involved, before you agree. Even after you've sent them your quote.
Back to top
danlenard
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:15 pm    Post subject: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote

Dennis,



Outstanding advice! Sometimes we hesitate to ask too much in fear of scaring off the booking we worked so hard to get. We're not Wal-Mart! Let the beginners take the cheap crap. I've noticed that Interactive Voices has gone to a $100.00 minimum and I'm hoping Voices 123 will go there as well. I've gone to a $100.00 minimum. That's now my hourly rate. I didn't work all those years and long lonely hours behind a mic to become a poor freelancer. We've got skills and talents that few have. In this modern, digital world, the shlocky will get peanuts. The pro's will prosper. It's a whole new ballgame.



Any other other thoughts folks?



Dan L.
Back to top
Dennis O'Neill
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Dan, thanks for the compliment.

I really beleive it's a two-way street. Take a look at some of the attitudes of voice people and realize the difference in those that think of "my beautiful, "irreplaceable" voice. Many organizations have no idea as to what is involved. That's just ignorance, not arrogance. What once was a secretive domain is now very public. What once was 'specialized' is becoming 'expected', due to 'home studios', FTP, ISDN, and if you don't want the gig, someone else certainly will. This is both advanced, yet compromised or diminished thinking.



My advice (unless you're represented) is to go into the project with the intention to help them - meaning within their budget. If it doesn't work for you (based on the final outcome, as explained above) then, "to hell with them"! But sending a quote with all of these printed out (even if you put an N/A in the price column, at least shows them what a good person you are for doing it for the price you are. Though, having an idea of how much you are worth is a necessary for anyone.



Scene:



Social gathering.



BIFF - friend of friend, says to you "Myself and a couple of investors have this website thing....kinda....you know,....educational,..click here..kinda thing. We're thinking of getting a voice to say a few lines for each ..uh..page, or whatever it's called.. just a couple of sentences, you know.

I heard you do that voice over stuff. Wadda ya charge?"





YOU: (Wrong answer) I charge $50 per hr., not including distibution and studio recording time! I have a producer on call for another $50 per hour should you need edits and music, but it must be licensed....."



YOU: (Correct answer) Well Biff, what's your email (or here's mine), and let me know all the details so I get an idea of what you want. Do you have a budget?
Back to top
danlenard
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:55 am    Post subject: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote

Dennis, (and co.)



This, I believe is the crux of why we're all here on VO-BB. If anyone has ever gone to my website, www.danlenard.com they'd see I'm quite the conservative. I hate unions! Those of us who have put the time in deserve to be paid more than beginnners. If your "pipes" and brain are coordinated in the proper way and you've learned your lessons of "back story" and "continuity" and "VU" and "compression," you have something others don't have. But, we are all different! There is no equality. There are people who are obviously much better than I in "certain" things. Unions make the marketplace stale. We want to be paid the maximum we can.



However, its a free market. with so many people out there you have to be competitive. But there's another side that I learned from my days in Life Insurance. The competition can be narrowed by superior forward marketing. Get 100 clients! Make that your goal. Nurture them while still pursuing new ones. ASK FOR REFFERALS!



For beginners this is sort of like being an actor in NY where you have to wait on tables between auditions. It doens't have to be that way. Look outside the box at where the opportunities are. Radio and TV in big markets pay well (Sort of) but consistant work pays the bills. Radio and TV I believe are secondary, gravy jobs. Build relationships with the guys who can give you volume. That's why I started this thread on "Price Point" Donald Trump makes a case for that every week on "The Apprentice." Profit comes from a market bearable price. This biz is like the wild west these days. Many of our potential customers have no clue what the market price is. because there is none. They'll get what they can for the price they offer, or you can educate them as to what is involved in "helping them out." If they can't take that, they won't be good clients. If you don't do this for a hobby, don't sell yourself short.



There is so much business out there beyond Voices 123 and other services. Find your niche and exploit it. Like doctors, you need to specialize.



Who else?
Back to top
Andy
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not familiar with Interactive Voices stipulating a $100 minimum. If they have, then it must have just been implimented. Their lowest range is $50-$250. And sadly, the majority of the leads fall into that range. And the client mentality is bottom feeder just like Voice123.



I did quite a bit of voice work long ago, before the advent of the Internet, home studios, etc. I've discovered that these new technologies have truly changed the tenor of the industry. I can't complain too much about the virtual platforms. I've made my subscription back at least 9 times over in the seven and a half months since I decided (and maybe foolishly) to come back to VO. Even so, every audition I do seems tantamount to jumping into a cock fight, or as I'm fond of saying, a dog pile. It's downright cheap and tawdry. I don't like where these technologies are taking us, because "Price Point" becomes moot. Just like "gubmint" work, the contract goes to the lowest bidder.



I hope in the future these virtual platforms exceed their marginal utility, or simply put: implode.
Back to top
mcm
Smart Kitteh


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 2600
Location: w. MA, USA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting and depressing discussion. I'm working hard on getting clients, learning marketing skills, and of course, improving my VO skills, and over the months have refined my rate sheet based on what I'm learning. I haven't gotten that many jobs yet. Of the ones I've gotten, one of them paid well. One of them paid the same as the one that paid well, but it was a lot more work plus a lot of driving. And the others paid peanuts. How many beginners who've had only a few gigs would say, no, I won't do that local :30 radio commercial for $50 because I'm worth a lot more? How do I even know I'm worth a lot more? What does it tell me about my saleability that I've made 890 contacts in the last 4 months and have only gotten 5 paying gigs? How can I get to be worth a lot more if I don't do any work?



On the other hand, danlenard's point about targets and goals is a good one. Although what I love the most is cartoon voices, the easiest work for me would be medical narration because of my science background and ability to pronounce the lingo. Maybe I should target that market and get those clients and let them be my bread and butter for a while, then support the cartoon/video game habit using stored fat. Which I guess means a lot more work trying to find those companies, going beyond emails, calling them up, asking to come in and read for them or asking for a script to read for them at home. Thinking up new ways to find and get to these people. Guess I'd better get to work...



MCM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Andy
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mary, you have to crawl before you walk. I work in TV. Ninety percent of my job is managing talent. I did the big market TV thing for years. I wanted out of the big city and decided to seek positions in smaller venues where our family could have a better quality of life.



That being said, I recruit talent raw. Usually, they're right out of school. We pay them crap to start. They improve, get better, and move on to the better paying gigs. My first radio job, full time, paid $130 a week in 1979. It took nearly fifteen years to start seeing the six figure salaries.



I'm new again to VO, but an old, salty dog when it comes to the industry in general. Don't allow pride to preclude opportunity. Take some of the lower paying gigs. In the overall journey, some steps are smaller ones, others are huge.



It's all in each person's perspective and experience. I've literally dodged bullets with a fifty pound camera on my back...several times. When you've survived stuff like that, the rest is well, bullshit.
Back to top
Dennis O'Neill
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: PRICE POINT! Reply with quote



"The competition can be narrowed by superior forward marketing. Get 100 clients! Make that your goal. Nurture them while still pursuing new ones. ASK FOR REFFERALS!



Look outside the box at where the opportunities are. Radio and TV in big markets pay well (Sort of) but consistant work pays the bills. Radio and TV I believe are secondary, gravy jobs. Build relationships with the guys who can give you volume. That's why I started this thread on "Price Point" Many of our potential customers have no clue what the market price is. because there is none. They'll get what they can for the price they offer, or you can educate them as to what is involved in "helping them out." If they can't take that, they won't be good clients. If you don't do this for a hobby, don't sell yourself short.



There is so much business out there beyond Voices 123 and other services."








Sorry for the long quote, but I wanted to make sure Dan's words didn't slide up the screen without consideration. I couldn't agree more. There's a big, fat, chunk of organizations, people, etc. that can use your services that have no idea how to go about it. If a VO person simply hits studios & agencies, they're going to get frustrated quickly, due to the competition. I really encourage people (starting out, experienced, whatever) to learn about marketing, and work WITH companies to have them require your services. If you can find your own clients, you're off and running, and you're not held hostage to pricing, deadlines and conditions which are scewed by competition. How do you find your own clients? Lots of ways, but the most important way is to be creative. (Being positive helps too.)
Back to top
lisaloo
Guest





PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan wrote:



Quote:
I hate unions! Those of us who have put the time in deserve to be paid more than beginnners.




While I certainly respect your right to hold that opinion, I just want to offer by way of clarification that union contracts only define the minimum payment a member may accept, and not the maximum. Scale is the starting point for negotiations, and surely not the ceiling.



You go on to talk about pricing our services in accordance with what the market will bear, and that is exactly what the unions do within the union marketplace: we find a minimum acceptable fee that satisifes both the membership and the signators.



But there is nothing in a union contract that prevents any voice actor from quoting a fee that exceeds union scale -- and plenty of people do just that everyday. Whether it is a higher level of experience or merely a personal preference for a certain type of voice at any given time, the market is constantly controlling the overscale rates for talent - union and non-union, in fact. It is also a fact of life (union or non) that while years of experience can certainly be our savior in the booth on many occasions, it is not always (or ever) what drives the marketplace. When experience matters, producers hire experienced talent. When it is not deemed a factor in casting, producers hire for other reasons.



The fact that a union contract offers a "beginner" the same scale rate for a gig as someone with ten years of experience is not, in my opinion, an accurate basis for disdain . . . the unregulated, open marketplace does exactly the same! The difference being, of course, that in the union scenario there is at least a minimum rate -- the same cannot be said in the non-union situation. (Which is, I think, at least partly the point of this thread.)



The nice thing about a union contract is that even if you lose a gig to Julia Roberts or Gene Hackman (or even another, non-celebrity "big dog" VO who works overscale), you're not apt to lose it to another scale performer who is willing to work for pennies on your dollar. And as many VOs know all too well, it's also good to have scale there waiting for you when your days of overscale are over.



I do understand that many producers opt to avoid union contracts because they either truly cannot afford union rates or just don't want to pay them, but it's not accurate to infer that union contracts are an impediment to getting more for your services. If anything, they prevent you from working for less (and from undercutting your peers).



Again, I respect your opinion, but wanted to clear up any potential misconception about union contracts defining a maximum -- they don't. Our contracts only determine the minimum.



And at the end of the day, union or no, it is still up to the individual employer to decide who gets the gig -- and in some circumstances, how much (or little) the talent will be paid, based on how much the producer wants to work with that performer.



Lisa L.



PS: One more thing: It's interesting to note that it is precisely because of discussions like these that unions such as Equity, SAG and AFTRA came to be in the first place. Professional performers more or less just got together and said, "Listen, can we all agree to set a baseline standard for our wages and working conditions and honor it?" It was because people had no minimums and sometimes found themselves either undercut by their fellows or taken advantage of by the employers that they came together and decided to organize and offer contracts. And while you'll certainly get no argument from me that our unions (some 70 -100 years hence) are far from perfect, they sure beat the alternative -- at least in the major markets.
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Forum Index -> Chat All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group