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PRICE POINT!
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danlenard
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:47 am    Post subject: price Point Reply with quote

Lisa,



I humbly respect your opinion about unions. I hold a very different philosophy. Unions upset the natural order of things by putting artificial standards to the free market. They take away choice. Minimums are great, but the majority of potential clients aren't willing to pay scale. Only Union shops hire union members. It's a total catch 22. I was told that I have to join AFTRA by the local paymaster (Who was also acting as an agent) but that the chance of me finding work would be greatly diminshed.



Don't get me wrong. It's also good to set standards for the quality of work. The unions get membership from those who have been hired by "the best." Maybe I'm not good enough to get to that point yet. It's a crap shoot! Unless someone "discovers" me, I'm going to make a living doing voices for web pages and the other places where I can get volume work. If I'm AFTRA, I won't get enough work to support myself. My experience with unions has been very bad. Only the leadership profits from what they negotiate.



Bottom line? Producers are the guys risking large amounts of capital, not talent. We should be respected for who we are and our talent, not for a membership card.



If you've got it babe, go for it! The rest of us need to feed our families.



Besides, as Groucho Marx once said; "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member."



There is different Price Point to different Voice markets. I was merely inquiring with VO-BB folks about thier experiences within these different market places.



Respectfully,



Dan L.



(ps, My attitude might clue you in as to why I had such bad experiences with unions. I don't work for a union, I work for me)
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All due respect to both Dan and Lisa.



I support both sides of this issue as to Union or Not...



I live in a "Right to Work" state. This affords me a unique prospective.



Primarily I show the "Union card" (AFTRA) for the respect offered - it says "professional". Although no direct level of proficiency is implied by having Union representation, it's one more step toward being better than the other guy... even though the "other guy (or gal)" may have years of experience.



As stated prior - "there is NO price point". You set your own value, if there is a minimum you choose, then that's your "price point". As for the Union, they have a minimum. Personally my "price point" is way above that minimum, however after 35+ years in the biz, I think I deserve it. Yes, I am "old, fat, and sassy - er".



The question is... "Where do you set your price point? Is it a "market-level standard" or above that price? What is your ROI? What is your minimum level of survival and how much work do you need to survive"? That's your price point - it's personal and YOURS, and YOURS alone.



Pricing is a personal and subjective thing - even when it comes to the union. However - with the union, you have a minimum standard fee which no one should go under to "get the job".



Frank F
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lisaloo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points made - and yet . . . here is my verbose reply.



:wink:



NOTE: I'm using the general "you" where that word appears and not speaking to or challenging anyone specifically.



As someone who has actually served as a negotiator for the commercials contracts in AFTRA/SAG, I can assure you all that there is nothing arbitrary or artificial about the scale rates we negotiate. Union scale in commercials is based on exposure (of the voice or the image) in a given market. In addition to national rates in hiring markets (larger cities, etc.) there are also lower regional and/or MIPI (made-in, played-in) rates for use in smaller markets. In any case, the rates are based on the number of potential eyeballs (or eardrums, as the case may be) that our voices or images may be exposed to. Other factors such as inflation, cost-of-living, etc. also factor into the equation -- as does our commitment to offering health and pension benefits.



And as far as the "I've got to feed my family" thing goes, well . . . sure. Of course. I think everyone shares that philosophy and agrees with that sentiment.



But as some around here may recall, I am personally of the belief that if it ever got to the point where I had to lower my rates below union scale just to stay in the game, I'd seriously think that maybe I need to do something else.



To put the finest point on it, I believe that anyone a producer deems worthy of hiring deserves a TRULY fair wage for what they do -- and I know for a fact that those who low-ball their rates are the reason so many folks (including many who post/lurk on this site) find it impossible to make even a partial (let alone "good") living in VO.



Check it out: even the smallest advertiser has $200 - 300 in his budget to pay the talent if he's buying ELECTRONIC MEDIA. If he's buying radio or TV time (which ain't really "cheap" anywhere, including Podunk, USA), there is money in the bank to pay the talent a couple hundred clams every thirteen weeks. If they could voice the spot themselves to their satisfaction, they would. If they could find a way to air it without paying to use the station's airwaves, they'd do that, too - but they don't. They pay the station for the time. And they engage professional voice talent to carry the message when they feel the need.



I think we all want to believe that it's only the bottom-feeders or the newbies who contribute to the race to the bottom in non-union VO, but I believe the opposite is the problem -- in the end, it's only the people with talent and experience (many of whom publicly claim to have high rates they refuse to lower) who hurt the price point when get panicky and take the bait.



A few years ago, a friend of mine made an experiment of approaching a number of non-union VO folks via their websites - both good folks and hacks - posing as a producer and asking about rates, etc. In every single instance, the VO on the other end of the line folded like a house of cards when asked to work for less.



It's not the bottom-feeders who lowball that anyone needs to worry about, friends. Nobody really wants to hire them anyway. It's the viable folks (be they beginners or veterans) who give up the ship and undercut to get the gig.



That's the main reason most non-union VOs don't get better money for what they offer: too many talented people out there are so eager or desperate to get in (or stay in) the game that they undercut their competition into oblivion.



And let's forget about the unions for a moment -- even without a formal union contract, don't you agree that anyone who is truly capable and worthy of being heard on the air is worth at least a few hundred bucks spread over three months for their professional services? The problem is, in my opinion, too many folks don't believe that they are worth it - and so they low-ball their rates (or give away editing, mixing, writing, music, distribution and who knows WHAT else for free) in order to be hired.



Furthermore, I believe that professionals in this industry have not only the right to "feed" their families, but the right to earn enough to INSURE the health of their families, too. And buy them winter coats and boots if necessary and maybe even send their kids to college.



So I offer an emphatic YES to the notion of feeding families -- but I know that actually doing so requires holding the line on your rates if you are truly good at this work. If one is "as good as" union talent, then one deserves at least the union minimum rate and a percentage on top that they can put toward health and retirement - whether a union contract is in place or not is irrelevant.



And while we're on the subject . . .I don't know many people who can truly house, clothe and feed a family (assuming that means the average of 3 - 4 people) on less than $500 a week after taxes almost anywhere in this country. Just keeping it ruh-zeal (as they say): netting anything under $2K a month as a VO is not "feeding a family". It may CONTRIBUTE to feeding a family, but it does not do the job alone.



So if we're going to talk about VO as a full-time career functioning as the sole support of family (or even an individual), we have to talk about how that is virtually impossible to do on $50 - 100 per gig - unless you're getting more than ten gigs per week (and those gigs are all non-broadcast and don't over-expose your voice in the marketplace). Just sayin' . . .



Sorry to belabor that point, but that always rears its head for me when the "trying to feed the family/pay the bills" spectre enters the discussion. If that's what one intends to do with VO, then we have to define precisely what that means in 2005. If one is truly paying the bills and feeding the family SOLELY on VO, then they garner the right to sigh and say, "Just doin' what I gotta do . . ." If not, then it doesn't wash. At least not for me.



If one does not intend to support a lifestyle on VO as a full-time endeavor (which is totally okay, of course) -- then it's supplemental income . . . which is another story. However, then we are required to confront the uncomfortable truth that it is NOT exactly good citizenship to undercut one's rates if one is not dependent upon VO for one's living, because doing so spoils the marketplace and drives down the price point for everyone, including those who DO need the income to live on.



Know what I mean? While folks have every right to do whatever the heck they want, if somebody is either just "havin' fun" or using VO as they would a part-time Avon or eBay sideline, then it's at the very least absurd (if not offensive) for them to ever say they are trying to "feed the family" and that's why they lower their rates. 'Cuz they're not.



As Dan alludes to in an earlier post, people who do VO are not Wal-Mart. But some are striving to be -- thinking that if they do enough volume at a low, low, LOW rate they will dominate. While it's not a terrible business model to crib from, I'm not sure it applies here - unless one has 100,000 unique vocal "products" that the market will never exhaust. I think it would work for a year or two and then crash.



But whether it's an effective strategy or not, that kind of price point mania is a destructive influence in the non-union universe, I think. It only makes it harder for everybody, I'd imagine.



But what the heck do I know?



Wink



LL
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mcm
Smart Kitteh


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 2600
Location: w. MA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow Lisa, what an awesome speech. Tell me, have you ever thought about this topic before? :wink:



I feel so inspired, I might just turn down the next $50 radio spot I'm offered....
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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good and valid points, Lisa. But working in New York may have skewed your view of the "price point" here in Podunk. The going rate here in the gateway to hell is a ridiculous $1.00 per second. Hence, I do very little here. If a talent says no to that rate, the producer simply calls over to either the Cumulus or Clear Channel cluster here in town and one of their low paid voice trackers will be more than happy to cut the spot for beer money. I'll do do some "charity" work for one local agency and a young commercial producer who's trying to get his company off the ground. And that's only because they threw work my way back when I couldn't get arrested.



Regardless, I think all your points are valid.
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lisaloo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andy and Mary.



Listen, I really don't mean to be an insufferable butt-pain about this subject, nor a Pollyanna. I totally "get" that rates vary in different sized markets, but that's why I pointed out that even within the union world, that is accounted for.



And for what it is worth, despite my current circumstances, I am Iowa born-n-bred, and haven't always worked in Chicago, NY and LA. I've done everything from national network TV to single-market radio for Madison, WI. So I understand where y'all are coming from.



In fact, I have already thought ahead to the day where I am once again tucked away in Iowa -- with only an ISDN line, my little studio and my union cards to keep me company. That day will not be far off if I have anything to say about it, so I've had to think long and hard recently about what I would do if both my decidely un-cool choice of location should take a heavy toll on my business as a VO. And I've decided that I will not resign the unions nor work under the table just to stay in the game at any level. But that's just my personal preference -- I'm the type of person overall who doesn't want to play if I'm not playing at the top of my game. In a nutshell, if I can't live the kind of life I want to live outside the major markets and hang onto enough business to survive as a VO on my own terms, then I'll do something else for a living. As ever, your mileage may vary.



Anyhoo . . . just wanted you to know that I think of these things all the time because in some ways, those of you who don't have to live in these major cities make me green with envy. I adore many aspects of big city livin', but 've been doing it for a very long time and it has lost much of its allure. Wink



The way I figger it, if I can hang onto a mere 20% of my business after moving to the sticks, I can still live like a queen . . . considering the difference in cost of living, etc. That's the plan, anyhow. And ya know what they say about making plans . . .



Wink



LL
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You GO Girl!



That's the spirit. FYI, I live in the boonies, in a resort town with a permanant population of approximately 12,000 (at last census), I am 40 miles from the nearest city of consequense, AND I am insufferable when it comes to my rates. I make NO apolgies for what I charge, and YES - I do turn down business.



IF you have the clients, and IF you have the moxie, you can make a good livin' in the sticks...



The Country Boy..



Frank F
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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lisa, I think we're all goin' to the same church, but by virtue of venue, we're prayin' in differen't pews. I wouldn't make the effort to fight the traffic or the throng of humanity on the subways to do a fifty dollar spot in Manhattan. But, here in Tumblweed Junction, I would drive five minutes to a local agency studio, work for ten minutes, and make fifty bucks. There's no "would" about it. I have. And will continue to do so. Likewise, if (God forbid) I had to live in the Big Apple again, the first thing I'd do is re-up my union memberships and work by those standards.



It's all relative. For less than $1,000 a month I have a 25-hundred square foot home, more lawn than I want and a pain in the ass in-ground pool. What's a studio apartment goin' for in New York right now?
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Deirdre
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The budget difference between major market and small market is astonishing.



I live in a very small market, where, 5 years ago, clients were unwilling to pay $25 to get me to voice their spots.



Lisa said:
Quote:
Check it out: even the smallest advertiser has $200 - 300 in his budget to pay the talent if he's buying ELECTRONIC MEDIA. If he's buying radio or TV time (which ain't really "cheap" anywhere, including Podunk, USA), there is money in the bank to pay the talent a couple hundred clams every thirteen weeks.




The going rate for commercials in the next biggest town, Portland, ME, was $100 in 2000 and may still be, for all I know. and it wasn't for any 13 weeks. Everything is a buy-out.



Quote:
And they engage professional voice talent to carry the message when they feel the need.





They'll get a pro, but not a union pro. The difference between paying $100 or $200 per year for voice talent is miles from the $2000+ they'd have to pay to get a union voice.



These are the real numbers. These are the real problems. There is a chasm between what a small market will bear and what the union calls "scale". And the scale pay is only 70% or so of what the client pays out for the talent.



Some Vox talents earn their way into the unions by virtue of great talent-- but they aren't going to get enough union work right away to offset the non-union clients they have.



I'm hired all over the place for some terrific jobs, but right in Boston where my local is I barely get a job a quarter-- and I've got name recognition, so they tell me.



It's all basically WTF.
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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, when I write my book I'm gonna call it WTF. Down here in Dixie, "scale" is sumptin' ya step on at the doctor's office. :lol:
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schaer
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Joined: 08 Jan 2005
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Location: Las Vegas, New Mexico (yes, there is such a place...)

PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lisa,



Your points are very well made. I am impressed and inspired. If all VO talent stood shoulder to shoulder we would not have to deal with undercutting and low-balling etc.



I do believe that unions are a valuable part in any profession (I am originally from Germany where everybody and their grandmother are union members). Many of todays benefits would not exist if it wasn't for unions.



At the same time, in a small 2 radio station town like Las Vegas, NM I can barely get $60 per spot from a client. I have been paid in pizzas and car repairs..... The only reason I am even getting work here in town is that I sound different (and better....) than the local DJ's. I take - and seek - the local work because I am a newbie at VO. Every spot that I do helps me (hopefully...) get better at it.



Best,

Bernard
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audio'connell
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:12 pm    Post subject: Opinons are like... Reply with quote

I've sat back for a while, just reading. Now I'm going to stir the pot....cause its what I'm good at.



A. Daniel, you're causing trouble again young man...its impolite to talk publicly about finances...see all the trouble you've caused. (Good job, keeps things interesting)



B. Nothing and I mean nothing makes VO's fall all over themselves like pricing. We speak about it as if all the businesses in all the world all have fixed pricing except us. We're funny that way (well, we're funny in a lot of ways but we border on both definitions of "hysterical" on this particular topic)



C. Its all arbitrary...from the formulaic equations union officials use to craft national and market-by-market VO pricing to the po' announcers working out of a handsome trailer in a retirement village....its all 'best guess'. Sometimes we get way less than we deserve and some days we get way more.



D. We're going to do what we have to do to make money and we'll try to do it as professionally and profitably as possible. Meanwhile, we watch some who have less talent than us make more money on a job we wanted and some who have no talent take less money for a job we were competing for...the old joke is annoyingly true sometimes, we've established WHAT we are, now we're just trying to establish a price.



E. High horses and pride are incredibly valuable on Voice Over bulletin boards...but few other places than that, IMHO.
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lisaloo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.



For what it's worth, though - an observation: for as long as I can remember, folks have been discussing the matter of non-union price points (and what can be done to improve them) to no real conclusion.



That's all fine, of course, but it doesn't seem to net folks anything. I dunno - maybe I'm just such an infernal "doer" that it frustrates me somehow. I'd be the one to advocate on some follow-through, etc.



However, it must be said that in a rather ironic twist, there is something of a "non-union union" structure developing thanks to the advent of all the online casting sites . . . the bidding-with-a-minimum dealie.



I am assuming that the increase to a $100 minimum at Interactive Voices (is that the one?) came about because members asked for it, so that's a good thing.



I'll conclude my speechifyin' by noting that this is how it's done, folks: there is some not-so-insignificant power in numbers and holding the bottom line as a group. That's how overall rates improve.



And last but not least, there is (again) nothing arbitrary about union rates - certainly not at this point in the ballgame. As someone who has absorbed more figures and stats than she ever thought she'd have to as an actor, trust me on this one. If only we COULD pull figures out of our bums and see them realized in dollars and cents . . .



Wink



Lisa
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Andy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lisaloo wrote:


I'll conclude my speechifyin' by noting that this is how it's done, folks: there is some not-so-insignificant power in numbers and holding the bottom line as a group. That's how overall rates improve.






Damn good point, Lisa. Below is a lead today from Voice123:



We are calling for unusual, top notch, professional "acting voices" and not your normal "voice over sound" to tell a 3-4 minute long story accompanied by new age music. This will be used on a mature and spiritually oriented CD and DVD project that will eventually be sold worldwide. If we use your voice, your website and/or name will be featured in the credits. Up front compensation is $200 per 3-4 minute story upon our acceptance of your final recording. However, WHEN the project does well, we believe in "sharing the wealth" and will offer generous bonuses and royalties. However, this will not be in a written contract at this time. If these terms are acceptable to you, then please proceed: We will accept all auditions through this websites audition feature or We are auditioning both for non-union female and male voices, of US english dialect only, preferrably both with an older, mature and wiser sound. The voice we are looking for, for both auditions, is one of great feeling, depth, sincerity, _expression, slow spoken with sort of a whisper in the voice. We are NOT selling something here and it cannot sound like a 30 second radio spot. Smile





They're looking for "Top Notch" talents for a lousy $200! Yet they offer no written certainty for residuals or royalties. And within 5 minutes, 25 people bit that hook. I might reply, too. But they'd be goin' :shock: for sure.



Sometimes ya just gotta say WTF.
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Dennis O'Neill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Audio'connel used the word 'formulaic'. Now I have to go look that up. One of those words that's obvious, but still....like...cool.



What a great discussion. Hats off to all, but especially to Lisaloo for her wonderful 'speech' which, naturally, I shall copy / paste and take full credit for! But to sound flaky for a moment,

Until North America evolves to include voiceover as a 'necessity' you (we) are alone in this, in a way. That's where the union comes in. Some people love 'em, some hate 'em. The idea of a union being formed to stop evil, smelly, fat British men from forcing kids into the coal mines makes sense. The idea that you can't move a sandbag until the shop steward gives permission for his boys to get the job done, is ridiculous.



Think for a moment, of other industries similar (results being non-tangible or 'instant'), that have gained the reputation of being 'pricey'. For example, Psychology, contract negotiators, insurance, building inspectors, Madam Cleo. How did they get that reputation? (Dunno. Guess they just deserve it!)

It would be nice for everyone to hold hands and not budge - and that would help, but that's not going to happen. Nor are we all going to stop buying gas to force down the prices. I don't have the answer, but I DO know that I do what I do because I love it. I got into it because it's what I wanted to do. Should someone rely on VO for full-time employment? Sure..but don't complain if you don't get a paycheck every 2 weeks. You chose the freelance life, and you have to deal with the ramifications, and don't blame other's for under-cutting you. It's cruel but fair.



My thought is to stop relying so much on the agencies and studios - in other words, "somebody give me work! I have to feed my family!". Sure, get an agent, send your demos out to agencies and the like, but rather than sit back and complain about how you fit into THEIR world (and the problems associated), also take your own initiative. You'd be surprised at how many people can use your talents, but don't know how to go about getting it.



I'll stop there, but my point is, don't lose site of the fact that it's fun and you have a passion for it, and you're very fortunate that you can make some bucks from it. If you get to that upper level, even better! But let's get away from the "I've been around for 20 years, and I have a great voice and now this industry is going to hell and it's all these young kids, blah blah" shit. Nobody owes you. It's not viewed as a necessity, and yes it is a professional 'service', but if you want to go that route, how much does your local high school teacher make? Nurse?

Me thinks some take themselves a bit too seriously sometimes.
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