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Stiffed by a client. Again
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
Location: Location, Location!

PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:40 pm    Post subject: Stiffed by a client. Again Reply with quote

I got stiffed by a client for 3 message on holds. Didn't get payment up front because he made good on previous gigs, so there was some trust. For the past couple of weeks, he's been playing games like pretending to be other people in email, claiming his business was bought (but not telling me by whom). And now he's shut off all email and phones. In short he's disappeared and even detailed internet searches come up blank.

So, the question is, do I have a right to tell the companies who paid for the services that they may not use the recordings I made? It seems to me that I do have that right, seeing as how the person who sold them didn't pay for them and therefore had no right to sell them.

If I unknowingly buy a stolen stereo and the guy who sold it to me gets caught, I don't get to keep the stereo. Is my logic flawed?
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11075
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your work is your property until you grant a license for it to be used and that license is granted on payment - No payment, no use.
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Jeffrey Kafer
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it doesn't seem to be panning out that way. The client is saying that they paid for it, therefore they have a right to use it and are now lawyering up.
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Claire Dodin
Club 300


Joined: 15 Feb 2008
Posts: 392
Location: Sunny LA

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Philip, and sometimes this is how you recover your money.
I had the problem once with an Indian company, when I explained the problem to the end client, he went to bang at the door of the prod company (literally, as they were both in the same Indian city), had a go at them and I got paid an hour later. It was awesome!
Now this end client employs me direct and always pays me! Laugh
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Last edited by Claire Dodin on Thu May 28, 2009 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11075
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffreyKafer wrote:
Well it doesn't seem to be panning out that way. The client is saying that they paid for it, therefore they have a right to use it and are now lawyering up.


The person who hired you sold something which didn't belong to him the end users problem is not your problem. The client needs to go to the person who hired you.

What you should do to maintain goodwill with the client is to say that "off you the record" you are happy for him to continue using the audio but if he could assist you in any way you'd appreciate it.
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But is there any legal premise for my claim?

If I buy a house, it's not my job to make sure every stupid subcontractor has been paid.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11075
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Copyright law. The producer does not and will never own your work, nor does the client, you merely grant a license to use it in (insert context). the producer is in breach of your copyright for allowing the use of your work and now the client knows that you have not granted HIM permission to use your work he must stop or he is in breach.

Permission to use is granted on payment to you for your work, the client paid for the production, a production he can't use.
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Deirdre
Czarina Emeritus


Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 13023
Location: Camp Cooper

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JeffreyKafer wrote:

If I buy a house, it's not my job to make sure every stupid subcontractor has been paid.


To digress—Yeah, it is. That's why there are title searches. If someone is owed money for work done on a house, they can file a lien.


Too bad the client is being less than helpful. There may not be much you can do, really— since the end client has paid for your services in good faith.
Dieter had an art dealer in Atlanta sell a painting for $10 grand and then go to jail for fraud. Dieter will never see any money or the painting again.
What can he possibly do? The buyer bought a painting, but the intermediary was a crook. It wasn't stolen goods— DeWitt had his work there under agreement like your relationship with your no-good producer, except his was in writing. Once the guy filed for bankruptcy all hope was gone.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
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Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were I in Jeff's situation I would walk away unless there was a considerable amount of money involved which I felt I had a reasonable chance of recovering.

Being in the right is not the same as being in the money. I do this job for the money.
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really have no choice but to walk away. It just infuriates me to no end.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11075
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After nearly two decades I still don't like walking away but for the sake of not wasting time, money and keeping sane it has to be done.
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Moe Egan
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Joined: 11 Sep 2006
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Location: Live Free or Die

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a complete off the topic comment...but wouldn't it be "3 messaages on hold"?

Sorry to hear about your woes Jeff...I have eaten my share of unpaid invoices...not yummy at all.
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Mandy Nelson
MMD


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 2914
Location: Wicked Mainah

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, I'm sorry to hear about this, too, and hope you can get past it quickly. It bites. Perhaps you should pony up the name, if that is allowed around here, so he doesn't do the same to one of us and to help get it off your chest.
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Branham Productions is the client. But it really isn't a company, just some dude.

Anyone ever used a collections agency?
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Last edited by Jeffrey Kafer on Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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Drew
King's Row


Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1118
Location: Tumbleweed Junction, The Republic of North Texas

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. And the agency took a third of what they were ABLE to collect. Almost as difficult as litigation. When it's all said and done, the only one really getting paid is the lawyer.
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