VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

Living Culture

I was just looking into some of the cheaper ribbon mics, like the Superlux and Nady's. While I am not in the market for one now, I wondered about them, since they have been getting favourable reviews.

Would it be worth having one or 2 in my mic locker? I know they will never sound like Royers etc, but high end ribbon mics are way down on my shopping list, while it would be affordable to get these. (Especially as the Superlux are made in Taiwan, so no added shipping charges)

For instance, those times when you would like a ribbon sound on a source. Would these make the grade, or would it be better to just stick to a decent condenser instead of the budget ribbon?
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Frank F · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:14 am Post subject:

Ask yourself a few questions regarding the "budget ribbons" before shelling out the bucks. Just having a microphone or any piece of equipment is a sign of "gearitis;" a critical and expensive disease.

Have you ever heard a sound file which used the less-expensive microphone? What was YOUR opinion of the quality of sound reproduced? Do you have a need (NOT a desire) for such a microphone? What will this piece of equipment do for you and your business? What is the Return On Investment potential - will the new gadget increase your income? How many of the "budget" trappings would you buy to equal the price of ONE quality apparatus?

Do not get me wrong, there are some good buys in the low-end price range, but if one does not have a NEED or a USE for the paraphernalia - then the trappings are fodder for the trash bin and a waste of your hard earned money.

Good luck on your decisions and choices.

Toodles

F2
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Living Culture · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:47 am Post subject:

Well..I AM a recovering gear junkie. Actually a few years back I invested in a SKB gig rig, which holds a mixer on top and 6U of rack gear, sold off everything that wouldn't fit in there, and promised myself that for anything new to come in, something else had to go! Worked for a while. But now I have taken everything out of the rig...

Frank F · Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:12 pm Post subject:

Reviews are simply paid "spin", in most cases. I read reviews with a jaded or biased point of view.

An example, I really like what I am hearing about the new M-Audio speakers however, until I hear them for myself I will reserve judgment. I am interested in playing with a new high-end 24 I/O mixer called the Zen - but until I can actually get my fingers pushing the sliders and buttons - I will reserve judgment.

I have no bias toward the Nady or Superlux, but I have heard them and worked them. They are not a microphone I will have in my "reserve" box. Not because they are bad microphones, but because I have others which will do the same or better job for my needs in recording. To me the Superlux is a bit thin and needs a lot of "pre" to make it sound good. The Nady is a bit muddy on the low -end and very flat in the mids. This is MY opinion, others may have differing viewpoints, and that is acceptable.

Toodles

F2
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Bill Campbell · DC Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 621

For voice-over, NO. Dull and un-defined.
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Philip Banks · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:39 am Post subject:

The next step up in the No No category is a tube/valve mic. Mmm love the subtleties of the sound which most VOs over compress and then send as an mp3 - Here's a black and white photo of my car, like the colour?

Living Culture · Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:05 am Post subject:

Lance Blair · M&M Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 2281 Location: Atlanta

Great tube mics that are used for voiceover
AT4060
TeleAK47
Neumann M149
ADK CS1
Bock 151
MG 990
Manley Microphones – yes, these are tube mics and major talents have been recorded with these.
MXL Genesis
Rode's higher end tube mics.
I'll take any one of these mics over a 416 which I have owned (notice the past tense).

Great tube preamps for VO
DW Fearn
Millenia
Manley
Summit
A Designs
La Chappell
Manley
Universal Audio – okay, I don't like these at all.
Pendulum

Cheap tube gear stinks. Good tube gear is great. Clean transformerless equipment is no guarantee of quality. Quality tube gear is clean, and is high quality.

If you use an AKG Solid Tube and TL Audio stuff it will probably sound bad. If you use a Manley Reference mic and a Pendulum preamp I think you'll be rather happy with the results.
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Philip Banks · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:45 am Post subject:

Frank F · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:46 am Post subject:

I am with Phillip on this issue - surprise! (and no offense Lance); "Gear is gear and there are more opinions than there are VOs".

Phillip can make any microphone sound good. D.B. would sound good on a "Hanna Montana" karaoke microphone, and on-and-on.

What works for one VO talent may or may not work for another.

The smoothness which is most often commented about with a tube microphone is not necessarily a good thing with some voice talent. This result may not be because of the microphone alone as Lance stated; it may also be the result of the combination of microphone and preamp or microphone - preamp - cables - sound card - editing software - computer platform - mood of the talent - weather - morning cup o' Joe - or any combination which may include any or all of the listed items or none of those listed.

I do not suggest using Solid State pre-amps for voice over work, but for music tracking - depending upon the genre' SS pre-amps may bring out the right feel to audio.

It is not the size (or the cost, or flavor) of what you got that matters it is how you use it - use yours wisely.

Toodles

F2
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Lance Blair · M&M Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 2281 Location: Atlanta

Now y'all have completely lost me. Frank, the Manley Ref mics are too smooth for spoken voice? Which one of the mics I listed is too smooth??? And you should only use solid state pres on instruments???

John Hardy and numerous other solid state preamps are fantastic for VO, and the tube mics I listed are great for VO.

Have a good room, good gear whether it's tube or solid-state, good talent, and it's all good.

I'm sorry, we can't record your VO today, we only have a Manley mic and a John Hardy in the studio...but here's a TL Audio and a SP C1 we had lying around.
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Frank F · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:54 am Post subject:

Again, as I said: "...for some voices".

SS pre-amps or channel strips tend to have more grunge than a tube - this depends upon the tube of course. Because tube pre's are able to be pushed hard (level wise) without digital distortion inherent in SS pre's and channel strips - they are smoother and cleaner across the audio spectrum.

Tube microphones - can be wonderful (depending upon the tube, transformer, capacitors, etc.) for some voices. I have great tube microphones - I would not trade for any other microphone, I have played with the U87ai (latest generation), I was not uniquely impressed as it did not sound the same as my old "go-to" microphone. A Sony C800 (tube condenser) is an incredible microphone for MY voice - would it work with your voice? I do not know, we could give it a try, but somehow I feel you would be better served in my studio with a C12, Blue Woodpecker, Bluebird, or Cactus; or an AKG 414b or ... - depending upon your style of read.

Each part of the microphone chain from specific microphone to delivery is anomalous to the user. Choosing a microphone is like choosing underwear; what I choose may not be right for someone else and I will not be sharing my underwear.

I like tubes - for some voices. I like dynamics for some voices, I like condensers for some voices - I do not like "shotgun" microphones for VO - period. For ENG/EFP work a shotgun is a nice tool however.

Would you take an Avalon preamp on an ENG shoot? Of course not. Each piece of equipment has a specific use - and this comment includes tube microphones.

Toodles

F2
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Lance Blair · M&M Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 2281 Location: Atlanta

Where is digital distortion in a solid state preamp? I can push my Speck 5.0 to the limit and it doesn't break up like Universal Audio tube gear. I don't understand why you try to avoid grunge with tubes in preamps but not with microphones. Also, I don't agree with your statement that solid state pres necessarily have more grunge than tube pres.

Well, you do back up my position that saying tube mics are an automatic no-no doesn't make sense. Especially when someone drops a blanket statement like that with no qualifiers or examples.
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Frank F · Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject:

I can take your Speck and put it on a scope and show you the digital hash I am talking about. SS pre's and channel strips are designed with a certain amount of "grunge" - manufacturers call it color. Now take a tube pre-amp, and (again using the right tube) with the same basic settings on the scope and you will see a clean signal through a larger amount of the frequency spectrum with great clean overtones and harmonics. Try getting the harmonics on a digital system.

We could argue this for time and eternity, but it will not change the facts. Digital signals are "on's" and "off's" or one's and oh's in tiny square chunks and look like saw blades on a wave form; analog signals are smooth sine waves.

In the music recording industry more and more studios are moving back into analog recording into a digital DAW; i.e.: AADA rather than ADDA. For those who are not aware of the nomenclature - ADDA = Analog Analog Digital Analog (we always hear things in analog -unless you have a computer for a brain) as the process of recording. This does not mean tape will make a comeback, but the mic chain in todays high-end studios will remain analog as long as possible prior to the digital recorder.

Hence, a condenser microphone, into an analog tube pre-amp, into an analog mixer, into a best quality A/D converter (sound card), into a recording hard drive system.

AFTER the sound has been recorded onto the hard drive will digital manipulation or processing take place, but not before then.

Many the current varieties of tube microphones have a small digital pre-amp built in to the case. This pre-amp helps boost certain frequencies and create the specific "sound" of the microphone.

Here are the basic pro's and con's of tube microphones:

Pro's:
Relatively smooth sound.

Con's:
Either you keep a tube on all of the time or you waste time warming up the microphone tube and shorten the life of the tube,

Very sensitive to high SPL's (not as much as a ribbon, but...),

Depending upon the tube enclosed, the tube can break or wear or die or...,

Tubes get HOT!

Tubes require electricity - and lots of it,

Tube replication quality can fluctuate with changes in the weather, humidity, heat, static, moisture from a vocalists mouth, etc.

I could go on, but ultimately it is your choices and your thoughts which matter to you. I know what I have experienced over my career and have made my choices already. I do not use a "shotgun" microphone for VO work! On rare occasions will I use a tube microphone or suggest a tube microphone for VO. Although I really like MY voice on a Sony C800 I would not use it as my "go-to" microphone.

Toodles

F2
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Lance Blair · M&M Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 2281 Location: Atlanta

The Speck 5.O isn't digital and it's well on the clean and uncolored side of most tube or solid state preamps. It has a switchable subtle transformer on the output side, usually I leave it off.

Here's a write up on preamps which half way down has a good evaluation of tube vs. solid state preamps written in language that most people here will understand. Yes, solid state preamps will distort. Cars will also blow up if you drive them at 100mph into a brick wall.

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/studio/preamps/buying-guide.php
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