VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[tokyofan]

Well, I took the plunge and purchased a Great River ME-1NV. With so many glowing reviews I decided to try it out. Sweetwater has a 30-day return policy which they're extending to me, even though I live in Tokyo.

Next to the Grace 101 (and paired with the U87ai), the GR seems a little warmer, beefier, and more forward. The low end is heavy and accentuated. But I wonder if it's too harsh and aggressive sounding. And it is noisier. I did about 8 minutes of news this morning and found myself doing a lot more clean up. I'm running it pretty 'clean' with input gain at 25 and output at +10. I find the Grace cleaner, quieter and more detailed...but a little thinner. Will play with the GR another week. and then decide whether to keep it or try something else.

Basically, I want a pre that will give me a little more sparkle and "3D" sound....but not too colored or hyped. The Daking One was also recommended but not sure how this might contrast to the Grace or GR.
Any thoughts?
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[jrkaiser]

I've got a Daking, a Summit Audio 2BA-221, and a couple of other pres. The Summit and the Daking are my favorites. I love each one for different sounds...

The Geoff Daking Mic Pre is freaking cool... And sooo simple...

It’s got a HPF and a Gain knob, phase, pad and phantom buttons... But it sounds so different than anything else I’ve heard...

http://www.creativeidentitygroup.com/clients/radionl/092909_justin_kaiser_merritt_fm.mp3

This is FLAT, NO EQ, NO PROC, NO COMP, NOTHING...

It’s just a pre, but it sounds like it’s got a slight bit of compression on it. Very quiet. Great presence and punch... Sounds like it may have a bit of upper mid cut, and detailed presence that isn’t all that airy or bright either. BUT THE BOTTOM END... Nice and tight and controlled... No boom to the voice.

Justin

[Gp]

The Great River is a nice pre. I used one when I did the Lauten stuff. It's a long the lines of a Neve as far as sound goes. It works well depending on the mic. I really liked the smooth sound I got with the Lauten mics.

It sounds like what you might be looking for is the John Hardy pre. http://www.johnhardyco.com/
I've not used one but from what I am told it is as you are looking for. Very clean, very big, and very 3d.

Another thing to keep in mind is your room. I had no idea how much difference in sound once my room was treated properly.

PEACE
Saw your post on GS too....interesting that most everyone thought the GR was best.

[jrkaiser]

Ditto on the room sound. I'm hearing things now, I've never heard before.

[Bill Campbell]

I thought the Great River sounded ok. Nothing exciting.
I'd keep the Grace and get a Speck parmetric EQ.
Dial in the mojo - if you're producing your own spots.
Pick up a UA LA-3 and you'll be kicking some serious butt.

Your Mic of choice > Grace > Speck EQ > LA-3 = Holy Moly!

The Gearslutz are recording guitar amplifiers, drum kits and singing voices.
Not the same as spoken word IMHO.
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[tokyofan]

Thanks for your comments. Here are three brief news clips I recorded with the Grace and GR paired with a U87ai. Also using a RME AD-2 for conversion.

Recorded dry and normalized at -4dB.

1. Grace 101
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/Grace_dry.wav

2. GR
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/GR_dry.wav

3. GR with 'loading' switch engaged
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/GR_trans_dry.wav

Interested in your impressions. I'm also in a position to order a DakingOne and/or a Phoenix DRS-1 for evaluation though the shipping and re-stocking fees would add up. The Summit is something I will probably pick up locally down the road.
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[jrkaiser]

Sounds fine to me in a narration read. Almost has a BBC type feel to it.

I liked the Great River with loading, but there wasn't much of a difference between them.

What is it in particular you don't like?

Justin

[Lance Blair]

I notice the acoustics of your room more than any difference between the preamps, whereas I would normally hear more differences between those two preamps. I think your sound is being shaped by your room, and preamps aren't going to change things much unless you use a totally junky preamp.
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and now, http://lanceblairvo.com the blog is there now too!

[tokyofan]

I've gotten mixed reviews (both public and private) regarding the sound files. Some said that the sound is decent overall and that GR sounds better than the Grace (focused low end, smoother, etc). Others comment that the sound, in general, is not very open, kind of boxy, and that it might be better to invest in a more open-sounding mic...or re-treat the booth, before upgrading the pre. I did expand and re-treat my space this past spring but maybe not enough. Hm.

While I can certainly hear a difference between the pres and think the GR is a little warmer and thicker, is the difference worth $1000+ ? Or should I return the GR and try something else?

1. Another pre (DakingOne, John Hardy)
2. A more open-sounding mic (I also have a TLM103)
3. re-treating the booth (again)
4. or experimenting with mic placement, EQ, etc.
thanks!
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[Bill Campbell]

I think for the news reporting the files sound perfectly fine.
For your reporting, podcasting, and even for commercial voice-over, you should just get an EV RE-20. Coupled with the Grace, it will sound thick, clear, and flattering. It's got a nice EQ bump in the "warmth" area.

Sell the TLM-103, return the Great River, and buy a new RE-20 for $400.
The RE-20 will sound very good and negate the majority of any room acoustic issues. And, you'll save money.

My 2 yen.
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[Yoda117]

[Bill Campbell]

Bottom line; for podcasting and news reports, you're current "sound" is fine.
Acoustics could use a little fine tuning.

As a producer of TV & Radio audio for thirty years, all I want is clean, artifact free audio.

Artifacts I don't want to fix:

sibilants
popped "Ps"
obvious bad room acoustics
bad compression
bad gating
bad editing

I don't care what your chain is, as long as it doesn't have the above.
I have professional outboard and ITB EQ, compression, and gates to tailor the sound for the project's needs.
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[tokyofan]

Here are some dry samples done with the TLM103 and both pres.
Normalized to -4dB.

Grace + TLM103
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/Grace_TLM103_dry.mp3

GR + TLM103
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/GR_TLM103_dry.mp3

GR + TLM(loading)
http://www.vo-bb.com/demos/GR(loading)_TLM103_dry.mp3

Is the TLM103 a better pairing with the GR and/or Grace? Is the GR a keeper or do I return it? I'm getting mixed reviews and am really on the fence here.
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[Lance Blair]

A few thoughts:

1.) I prefer the 103 to the u87...yeah, the u87 is smoother and better on thin male voices, but you know what they usually do in processing? Make it sound like a 103. I did session recently with a u87 and 1073 preamp and I've never sounded better, but I think that was the preamp more than the u87 (maybe it was me). I've done sessions on the u87 that did not sound that great (despite my performance) with subpar rooms and preamps. It's not a cure-all.

2.) The Grace trumps the GR for you in this application. When I was looking for a preamp I did a shootout on my old 416 (that some VOA in Vegas now owns) with GR, Daking, Speck, UA, and one other pre that escapes my recollection. The Daking was nice but thick for me, the UA was mud mud and more mud, the GR was just too much...at the time I remarked that it was a "rock and roll pre", and the Speck was a nice clean preamp that didn't get in the way and had a subtle feel to it that wasn't cold or thin like a lot of "clean" preamps. So I went with the Speck, which I find lives in a sonic niche between the Grace and Hardy.
The Grace sounds better for your voice, your mic, and for this read.

3.) I heard some headphone leakage at various times on the clips. Maybe this is affecting your sound more than a preamp swap? Which headphones are you using and how close are you to the mic, and do you crank your headphones? Sony 7506 phones bleed like crazy, and I keep those down as low as possible if I'm working them. At home I use cheap enclosed AT headphones in the booth that are flat, non-fatiguing, and more importantly very comfortable.

4.) Take that GR money and get an RE27, SM7b, new headphones (perhaps), and acoustic panels/bass traps...not foam, but panels.

5.) Most importantly, you sound great already. Good luck.
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Skype: globalvoiceover
and now, http://lanceblairvo.com the blog is there now too!

[tokyofan]

Yeah, the phones output was too high switching from the GR to the Grace. It's normally not a problem.

Here are my final thoughts on things:

The GR is potentially a fantastic pre but not really enough improvement over the Grace with my current mics and booth. My less than ideal acoustic space doesn't really help matters.

Interestingly, I find that most people prefer the 'dry' files over the 'processed' ones and wonder if my processing is bringing out the worst in the room...creating artifacts or muddiness. The dry files sound more clean and open.

But I do think the TLM103 is a little more neutral-sounding in my booth...I kind of like it. The U87 would shine more in a better space, perhaps.

I sent the GR back today. (Very costly to return gear from Tokyo with all the shipping fees, insurance, and import tax! Ouch. Hope I don't get hit with a re-stocking fee to boot.)

I'm gonna stick with the TLM103/Grace pairing for now and work on re-treating the booth. I've started another thread on that here: http://www.vo-bb.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9296
Thanks again!
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