VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

Bish · Last edited by Bish on Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total

Some months back I purchased a V69ME (bargain $220) based partly on the stellar reports this mic has received on this site... especially after a tube replacement (some comparing the re-tubed unit with mics costing ten times as much). I've been using the mic with the original tube, and have been very happy with it (compared with the V88 it ousted). But... the results promised by a tubectomy were too tempting.

I ordered a NOS Mullard 12at7 (cv4024) and started to collect the information regarding the replacement process. It all looked simple enough, and I have no worries doing this type of thing... however, I'd heard that if I sent a message to MXL, they would send a pdf with nice colour pictures. I did, and they did. The info received reinforced all the info on the web (gearslutz and here) and confirmed that it was easy-peasy.

The tube arrived, and I opened the mic up to find that the internals were nothing like the the pictures (or the descriptions)... in fact, the layout made the tube change really easy... just undo the retaining strap and drop it in. There was no need to disturb the diaphragm at all as it was never exposed. I'm guessing that I've got a newer redesigned model... but as far as I know, it could be an older unit!

Everything functions just fine, but, I'm just waiting for it to warm up before I do any meaningful tests. I'd be interested in any observations from other V69 tube changers... also, what is the general view on the time needed for a tube to warm up before optimal performance is obtained?

Cheers
peter
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
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todd ellis · Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:15 pm Post subject:

i did mine a few years ago and it was a BITCH. actually - the only issue was two TINY phillips head screws that were very, very hard to get out. i used the same NOS mullard 12at7, and have been very happy - i'm sure you will be too.

i'd warm the mic for 30 minutes to an hour.
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Mike Sommer · Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject:

Pictures Please!!

The tube should be good to go in 30 min
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Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong.

Bish · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:57 am Post subject:

The process of changing the tube was simple and straightforward.

1. Unscrew the base
2. Pull off the body tube
3. Undo the two small cross-head screws and remove the retaining strap
4. "Wiggle" the old tube from its socket
5. Remove the rubber collar from the old tube and place on new tube
6. Install tube, strap it down, replace body and you're done.

As requested... pictures!

First, here's the "front" of the V69 internals for reference. I know there's a general interest in the redesign, so here's it is.

Here's the "back" showing the tube placement on the daughter board and the retaining strap & screws.

... and a better view of the collar etc.

Cheers
peter
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.

cyclometh · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:33 am Post subject:

Where would be a good place to give a listen to how various tubes sound in a preamp? I run a tube pre and I like the sound it gives stock, but I'd also like to know what my options are if I wanted to change the sound.
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Bish · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:05 am Post subject:

When I was researching this I found that there were very few a/b comparisons available. Most of the descriptions I found were more subjective, using terms like "musical","warm" and the ubiquitous "better". Apart from the information here, I've found that trawling through the forums on Gearslutz can produce a wealth of tube information... although a lot of it is to do with general recording and not specifically voice.

Personally, I've lost all objectivity, and am finding it difficult to describe how I feel about the tube change. I'm trying to quantify with terms like, "a bit rounder and warmer", or "a tad less crunchy in the middle". Has it been elevated to the level of a u87? I somehow doubt it, but there again, I've never had the opportunity to use a u87 Smile

... but I'm definitely happy with the results, and for $28, it was a no-brainer! I'd look and see how easy it is to change out your pre-amp tube and just slap one in (assuming it's nothing esoteric and just a standard 12at7 or similar). It's probably a good idea to have a spare tube laying around anyway if the pre-amp is a critical part of your production chain.
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.

cyclometh · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:32 am Post subject:

Aye, it's a PreSonus Studio Channel, it came with instructions on replacing the tube, so it should be straightforward.

I'm coming to the same conclusion, that it's hard to get objective information about tubes, but I'm reluctant to lay cash out without hearing one, or at least getting some recommendations.
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todd ellis · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:14 am Post subject:

wow! they made that a heckuva lot easier. i had to practically disassemble the whole thing.

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Mike Sommer · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:28 am Post subject:

Tubs descriptions are very subjective. But once you work and listen to them regularly, you will understand where these descriptions are coming from. I can say any new-old-stock tube generally sound much better than the modern versions. As I believe you are discovering.

Also understand that even the same tube made on the same day in the same factory can have a little different sound. With that beware that all Mullard's are not all the same either. Someone has purchased all the original equipment and is making them again. What they don't have, is the original source material that made up the old tubes- it the material that makes the sound of the tube not the machine. And thusly they are not the same tube, and some folks are selling them as the old tubes - BEWARE.

You should also know that all tubes are 'Musical'.

Think of musical as a violin player and his individual violin. There are no two player that are alike, and there are now two violins that are alike. The player can play an A note, but depending on how he pulls the bow across the string, dictates how that note sounds- aggressive or soft an mellow etc... And thusly, it is imperfections -the randomness the pull of the bow, the thickness of the string, the resonance of the violin itself, all these things make up the musicality of the player and violin. Now put 30 violinist in a orchestra and the musicality becomes even grater. Even if they are all play the same note, they don't all sound like one big violin, but they all work together and give you a big musical sound.

Compare that to a digital violin on a keyboard, were everything is clocked to the same digital beat. It's not quite the same as the real thing, it can be clean and brittle and not always pleasing to the ear. This is why Vince Clark said that would rather work with older keyboards like a MOGE, than with a MIDI keyboards, because they Vibrate differently and play better together.

Rolling tubes into preamps is something you must do yourself. Buy a tube or 4 and try them out. That's the only way you will understand what it is doing in your preamp. The voicings will will be a little different, but after you use a it for a while, you will begin to forget about those differences. It just becomes a lot like looking at a the same painting on the wall from different subtle positions. Looking straight at is nice, but stepping a foot or two to the left or right, it's not all that much different.

What will be your biggest change, is kicking out those modern tubes and installing a good new old stock tube.
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The Blog:
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Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong.

cyclometh · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:34 am Post subject:

Mike, would you have some recommendations for tubes to look at trying out to get a feel for how they might sound?

My voice is baritone to bass, and tends to rumble a bit. I don't need to sound like a basso-profundo from the Bolshoi Opera or something, but I love the sound a tube gives. It's all a balancing act, I'm finding.
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Mike Sommer · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject:

RCA Black Plates - nice fat lows with grit.

Sylvania black plates (Top of the line) These have a nice sparkle in the highs.

Telefunken is are very good for mics, nice and airy at the top end and a nice depth to the sound.

Amprex, Siemens, Valvo, Lorenz are very nice- clean and even though out the spectrum ( this might be a good tube for you). This would be my first choice for any mic.

Mullard (NOS), Genalex, Brimar -- All great tubes, very accurate with the human voice Look for "D" Getters ($$$). The Genalex are amazing, deep sound stage and very detailed.

12AT7 is the basic tube, 12AT7WA and 6201 are military grade versions and have higher standards and tend to be more constant from tube to tube. If you can find Sylvania Gold Brand versions of the 6201 get it, or any gold version of this tube (many of the above companies made gold versions).

Also Look for:
E81CC or ECC801S ( these are kind of rare but very good tubes very much like the RCA black plates)
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/

Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong.

Jacob Ekstroem · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject:

http://www.audiotubes.com/12at7.htm
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Jacob Ekstroem · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject:

cyclometh · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject:

What about pulling tubes from old equipment? Anyone do that, is it a viable option?
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Corey "Vox Man" Snow
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Mike Sommer · Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject:

No, and like I said each tube is going to be a little different. And it depends on the circuit that the tube is in also, so listening to a sample may not tell you much.

Besides rolling tubes must be done in person, trying to listen to the subtle differences over the internet is pointless. Taking a step up in Audio Quality requires taking a leap of faith. Either you are willing to do it or you are not.

The one thing about a good Tube, you can always sell it and get your money back on ebay.

I have most of the tubes that I listed in the High output versions (12AX7A and 12HB7A) and the descriptions that are on the page that Jacob posted are very accurate. If you can get find the a Gold Sylvania GET IT.

But I love the Amprex and Siemens and I would recommend these for you
as well as the Telefunken.

If you want to just dip your toe in, then try the RCA gray plates, they are not as nice as the blacks but they are much better than any of the modern tubes, and a little cheaper.

And let me point this out, tubes don't last forever, you'll always want 2 or 3 around anyway.
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/

Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong.