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VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!
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Rick Riley
Flight Attendant
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 807
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:44 pm Post subject: An Avid Shootout... Your ears are invited! |
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A couple months ago I purchased an Mbox 3 Pro. I've been extremely pleased with it on all levels and think it rivals anything on the market at even double the price.
Being on Avid's mailing list, I got this shoot out today. I listened through Sennheiser HD 650 headphones and I was stumped, but I took a wild guess and scored all of them correctly. Again, I GUESSED.
I thought the 'gear heads' on this board would be interested so I'm passing along the link. s.avid.com/mbox-challenge/?elq_mid=4930&elq_cid=1352486" target="_blank">http://a s.avid.com/mbox-challenge/?elq_mid=4930&elq_cid=1352486
Always looking forward to your comments! |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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This is basically a rigged shell game.
Like going to the optometrist, he does not give you 4 or 5 choices to choose from, it's "Better one or better two." (adjustment adjustment) "Better one or better two." Only when you're sitting there, panicking, and you can't see a difference will he throw in a third option. Here too it should be individual files that can be compared, and contrasted side by side. They also need to post their methodology
The best you can do is decide which one you like the least, and to my ears M-Box, as one fellow said, is missing something sonically than all the others. (I've always have said this about the M Box-- It is a sonic robber.) Though I was able to pick out the clarity of the Apogee Ensemble.
Also remember you're also listening through you're own interface. The only way you can truly tell is to listen, live, in-person though each individual interface.
_________________
The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Rick Riley
Flight Attendant
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 807
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Sommer wrote: | They also need to post their methodology
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I believe the methodology is at the top right of the page in the 'Go behind the scenes of the listening challenge' video.
| Quote: | | ...remember you're also listening through you're own interface. The only way you can truly tell is to listen, live, in-person though each individual interface. |
True, one can only listen through the interface one has, however, even if the interface offers its own color, it colors each source equally, so I would think for 'comparative' purposes, if the sources are different, even if colored, they will still be different. I also listened through two different systems.
In summary, I'm sure I don't have access to the caliber of equipment you have, but while the Mbox may not be the Nirvana of interfaces, I've found the third generation's converters to be light-years ahead of the previous generations. And since I run a Martech MSS-10 preamp in to mine and don't utilize Avid's preamps, for VO, I find it to be a very clean and uncolored setup. I also get a lot of compliments on my audio from some high profile clients, so apparently their ears are hearing what I'm hearing as well.
To me, it's like a high performance motor. You can spend $30,000 makeing a 300 hp engine into a 600 hp engine. Then you can spend another $30,000 making into a 675 hp engine. In everything there comes a point of diminishing returns and I think, at least for me, the Mbox Pro 3 series, at its current price level, brings it to the point of diminishing returns. |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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I have gone behind the scenes, and I laughed when I saw the Logic box in the background, then they say they went with Logic, and not Pro Tools... makes ya think doesn't it?
| Quote: | | even if the interface offers its own color, it colors each source equally, |
To some degree yes. BUT if you have a noisy interface you would not be able to hear the differences. "Two sources of white noise summed will not total a louder noise." So it would be very difficult to hear the clarity of the signal if you are listening through a noisy interface. Thusly skewing any results of clarity.
It's also like running one preamp through another preamp. You can't precisely tell what each preamp is doing, all you know is that you have a different sound. And that sound would not tell you exactly what each unit is actually doing. This is why the only real test is to listen in person, comparing and contrasting two by two.
Is there a big difference between the interface samples? No
Would I be able to pick any one of them out off the street? No
I can say the same thing about a lot of inexpensive interfaces, the technology is very good these days - as it should. There is of course some cheap garbage out there, but mostly the fault is with the onboard Preamps, as well as the inefficiency of the analog digital converter. It is the efficiency of the processor that dictates the price of the unit, more efficient processors cost more.
That's why they spent so much time adjusting levels, and using outboard preamps and a magical transformer box. Unlike most prosumers. (A real world test I'm sure would have had different results.)
Let me explain:
When you convert Analog to Digital there is always going to be bit loss. I believe MBox has upwarda of about 2 or 3 bit loss in conversion. 3bit out of 16 or 24 is not bad right? Well, let's do some math-- 1Bit = 6dB's of gain. 3x6= 18. In other words you lose anywhere form 12 to 18 dB's of head room in the analog the digital conversion. That's why some of you folks trying to use dynamic mics have such a hard time getting a hiss free signal with a preamp that has 60 dB's of gain, when in the analog days of recording, 45 dB's was about average for a preamp.
So it's not just about sound it's also about efficiency. And that's why the big boys use those expensive interfaces.
| Quote: | | In everything there comes a point of diminishing returns |
Of course. It also depends on how badly you want something too.
It might be good to know that the good people of Avid are doing a lot of PR ass saving, due to their very deceptive advertising of the M Box's 70db's of gain output.
The funny thing is they didn't put MBox up against equally priced units that would have yielded pretty much the same results and they were not using the onboard preamps. This is more of a stunt, than it is a comparative display of what the MBox can and can not do.
But I do hear a sonic difference with the MBox, and so do a lot of people I know.
_________________
The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Vocalvoodoo
Contributor IV
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 106
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Is it just me or did all the example 2 clips vocals have a bunch of distortion/crackling in the right channel? I mean seriously, they went through all this trouble to do this shootout but have distortion in the samples?
Mike, I didn't notice they were using outboard pres. I was under the impression that they came out of the splitter to the built in pres of each unit. Outboard pres = WTF?!
Craig Anderton did a pretty good review on the Mbox 3s.
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2762705-Avid-Mbox-Pro-Computer-Interface-Now-with-Conclusions
Even though he gives a glowing review, I probably still wouldn't buy one based on the Mbox 2 and Digi 001 I owned. And also based on the samples I've heard of the Mbox 3. While I love Pro Tools, I still have a bad taste in my mouth regarding their prosumer boxes.
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Josh Mahler
http://www.vocalvoodoo.com |
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Rick Riley
Flight Attendant
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 807
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Vocalvoodoo wrote: | Is it just me or did all the example 2 clips vocals have a bunch of distortion/crackling in the right channel? I mean seriously, they went through all this trouble to do this shootout but have distortion in the samples?
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I didn't hear any distortion and found the recordings to be quite clean.
| Quote: | | Even though he gives a glowing review, I probably still wouldn't buy one based on the Mbox 2 and Digi 001 I owned. |
First, thanks for the link. As an owner of the new Pro box, anything I find on it from a reputable reviewer, I'll take the time to try to digest.
Regarding your summation, it sounds like that bad taste has permeated your forward thinking and causing you to form your opinion subjectively.
The object of R&D, focus groups and field research is to hopefully find flaws, correct them and introduce a better product. I began with an Mbox, because coming from a radio field, I wanted to stay with Pro Tools in something I could afford.
The limitations of a 'one size fits all' product were great as most of that nature are, and because of that, as my needs matured, I began looking for something that filled the voids the Mbox was leaving.
Had Apogee decided not to abandon PC's and focus on Mac's (I'm obviously a PC), I would have gone with them, but they did so I didn't.
Consequently I'd been waiting and looking... for quite some time, trying to make the right $$ vs equipment decision. When Avid came out with the new series and I saw and heard what they had done, it fit my criteria and I've been very satisfied. Had I based my decision on the products I currently owned, I wouldn't have picked another in their line.
I've always owned foreign cars as well, and up until a year or two ago would have never dreamed of owning a Ford, based on their previous products. But after recently driving a couple I'm willing to look at them as a new product once again. I think the great amount of effort both of the companies I mentioned have put in to redeveloping their products warrant a fresh look on my part. But I will grant you, getting rid of predispositions is not easy.
My 2 cents. And thanks again for the link. |
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Vocalvoodoo
Contributor IV
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 106
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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"Regarding your summation, it sounds like that bad taste has permeated your forward thinking and causing you to form your opinion subjectively. "
No arguments there, you are right. 
I have to keep in mind, Avid is not Digidesign, which is who I have a bad taste with. Avid, IMO, has moved PT and the interfaces in a much better direction.
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Josh Mahler
http://www.vocalvoodoo.com |
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