VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[ballenberg]

Dave,

No need to mention the union to the client at all--They're not the employer of record. They just need to know the billing will be done through your payroll company, and they'll pay the flat amount agreed on. Pension, welfare, paymaster fee? They don't need to hear any of this.

[Bruce]

Is this example illegal?

Say you negotiate a $1000 fee for a job but all the fees and such come to $1,100. Can you the artist chip in the other $100 to the paymaster? You've basically discounted the job by $100 but kept all the union earning benefits. Only you and the paymaster would need to know.

B
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VO-BB Member #31 Enlisted June, 2005

I'm not a Zoo, but over the years I've played one on radio/TV. .

[ConnieTerwilliger]

I would ask the paymaster about that, Bruce. I am pretty sure they are the ones billing the end client, so in effect they would have to send out two bills.

As far as converting commercials to union? Someone has to be responsible for the reuse fees, and a paymaster is not going to do that. So converting commercials is probably not going to happen.
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[Deirdre]

Connie, Bruce is not talking about 2 bills.
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[ConnieTerwilliger]

Oh, yes, I see that now. It still involves two checks - maybe it is better to just find a contract that allows the lower rate...
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[melissa eX]

To add to this. If you have an FSO (For Services Of) you don't have to cover the contributions for payroll tax FICA. So that's one way of "discounting" if you'd like. In that case you're responsible for both sides of the payroll tax just as you are now as an independent contractor - and you get to deduct half from your taxes - as now, but you don't have to shell out for unemployment and workers comp. Using Deebs example you would add back the 121.47 for net wages of 823.58.

You'd have to ask the paymaster if you can pay them "outside" of the overall gross. I imagine each paymaster has their own procedures. One advantage to that would be you can then deduct the paymaster fee from your taxes as a business expense. Otherwise it goes "poof" like the H&R which you can't deduct because theoretically you never got it.

As Bill pointed out, the client doesn't have to know at all. All they have to know is that you utilize a payroll or billing service to handle your billing - just like doctors do - when was the last time you got a bill from an actual - yes d3 - actual - doctors office?. You send your invoice for the total amount to the paymaster. They then send an invoice for the total to the client. The only difference is the client writes the check for the full amount to the paymaster (i.e. your billing service) rather than directly to you. When the paymaster receives the funds they handle splitting it all up into where ever the parts go. Typically they send both the check for the H&R and the check made out to you for the net to the union so the union can record it. Then the union forwards your check onto you. Sounds convoluted but it really isn't. I've had checks get to me in 10 days from when I sent the invoice to the paymaster. They and the union turn the invoices and checks around really quickly.

Industrial work can be converted really easily. Commercial is another story but some commercials CAN be converted. They have to meet certain criteria though. The paymaster can tell you what. They know far more than the union staff about all of the contracts and what can and can't be done.

AFTRA holds seminars during the year on how to convert jobs. Of course you have to be a member in good standing to attend so small wonder not many people know about it. It's part of that educational gap between union and non-union that I think the union should breach, for the good of us all.

Also, the Producers Handy Dandy is the absolute BEST resource I've found for figuring out union rates for commercials. I forget who pointed me there, but thank you. And they have the rates for the other contracts all on one page so you don't have to go searching through multiple contracts. Keep in mind though, all posted rates are scale. You have to add all of the above (H&R etc.) to come to the rate that has to be paid in order to convert. Which is the rate the producer would be paying if it were a union job.

[Scott Lyle]

It sounds like there should be an a for all of this. Punch in the usage, market, time, etc. and pop-out comes the magic number.

[Kim Fuller]

Printing all this out to study and research further, until that a appears...

[Deirdre]

When I use a paymaster, I get the check directly from them— but for an FSO, the Union sends the check?

This is the very first time I have heard of FSO.

You still lose $$ having to pay payroll tax which is the same as throwing money away, but more overall counts toward your union earnings which is way rad.
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[COURVO]

Melissa and Connie,

You are both encyclopedic in your knowledge of this stuff. I have no idea what you mean by reuse fees, Connie.

And Melissa, all your posts are extremely hard to follow...not because you don't know what you're talking about...but because I don't know what you're talking about.

Does anyone else notice how incredibly complicated this becomes the moment you bring "Union" into the equation?

Non-union: do the work ----> invoice the client ----> get paid

I know non-union brings no guarantee of set rates, no health and pension, no residuals, and no legal backing, but it also doesn't make my head hurt when I'm trying to navigate the maze of politics and convoluted pay schemes.

Probably, like anything else, it seems a lot less complicated once you've done it a few times (please tell me it seems a lot less complicated once you've done it a few times !)

....trying to understand.

CourVO
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[ConnieTerwilliger]

[melissa eX]

[Bish]

This discussion continues to be informative. Thanks to all who have throw out some facts and real-world examples for the rest of us to mull over (struggle with). When reading the messages from Melissa et al, everything is clear... well, clear enough to understand during the reading, but still convoluted enough to make it impossible for me to explain it to someone else without notes!

... but that's the problem. There is very clear positioning at either end of the work spectrum. From the simple freelance get job, get paid non-union model, to the equally simple working in LA and this is how the machine works model. The issues come in the transition, or when trying to keep a foot in both camps.

I am positive that a new issue of the OED or Webster's will use some of this information when defining the words convoluted, obfuscating, archaic, restrictive, intimidating & rocket science. If the system isn't changed (I'd say streamlined, but you're never going to make a house-brick aerodynamic) people will run screaming for cover and ignore the union issue altogether simply because they can't work out when they have to wave the rubber-chicken above their head... and when they do, is it clockwise, or anti-clockwise.

The union has to remove these tangible barriers and the requirement for these convoluted practices if they want to broaden their appeal and expand their legitimate membership base. If they don't, they will be seen as elitist and exclusionary.

Oh.


edit to add... I know that these barriers are not all of the union's doing, but are the system's response to dealing with convoluted labour laws. Also, their exclusionary position may not be a true reflection of reality... but it is perceived reality, which, as we all know, is the only reality that counts.
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[Deirdre]

[Deirdre]