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Lee Gordon A Zillion

Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 6864 Location: West Hartford, CT
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Bruce wrote: |
speaking of keeping meaningless drivel in the "permanent record", I just read that Twitter and the Library of (frikkin') Congress have made a deal to store every tweet ever created in the L of C!!!!! 170 billion so far. |
Present day archaeologists learn quite a bit from examining the trash pits and and even the outhouses of past civilizations. This archive will no doubt help researchers in future millennia get a handle on us.  _________________ Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Rick Riley Flight Attendant

Joined: 12 Aug 2011 Posts: 807 Location: Portland, OR
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lee Gordon wrote: | This archive will no doubt help researchers in future millennia get a handle on us. |
Future? You think we have a future??? BWAHAAHAAAHAAAAA!!!!
Getting back to the thread... the spot on V123 wasn't for a sporting goods outfit was it? _________________ Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the Paramedics
www.rickrileyvoice.com |
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captain54 Lucky 700
Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 744 Location: chicago
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Rick Riley wrote: |
Getting back to the thread... the spot on V123 wasn't for a sporting goods outfit was it? |
It was sports related, but I'm not sure if it was sporting goods, per se. |
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georgethetech The Gates of Troy

Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 1878 Location: Topanga, CA
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Get the answers straight from the horse's mouth tomorrow, we're having Steve Lowell on EWABS. If you watch live and join in the chat room, we'll ask him your questions.
Join us at 6PM PST on EWABS.com _________________ If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder |
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Bill Eshelman

Joined: 04 Oct 2011 Posts: 15 Location: Central PA
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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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The reason for this "issue" is that people who are reviewing the auditions can click on the ranking simply to mark which VO they like without really ranking (more as a check mark). I just did a job "seek" on Voice123 for a commercial I was doing and set it for 75 submissions. When I went through them, I just used the rate buttons to mark the few I liked (without really rating them or caring which dot I hit). Then I sent my client a link to the auditions and he went through the few I marked and clicked a few he liked and maybe changed mine, who knows. Then we talked on the phone and he said he liked so and so and I agreed so we hired her and that was it. Never went back and even looked at the ranking. So what it boils down to is people just clicking on the rank to mark reads worth a second listen. I listened for articulation, audio quality and sound of mic. Then the client listened to the ten that passed my taste. I actually had great success with the service from the buyers side so far.
I would go with what Jason Huggins said above about checking your ratings...
fuggitaboutit _________________ If you want to go further in life, take bigger steps. |
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georgethetech The Gates of Troy

Joined: 18 Mar 2007 Posts: 1878 Location: Topanga, CA
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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bill, very informative to hear how this feature is used from the buyer's perspective. I'll bring this up with Steven tonight and see if they have a better system for this, like is used in the photo world for ranking images in a light box. _________________ If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder |
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captain54 Lucky 700
Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 744 Location: chicago
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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The question was never addressed (in case I missed it), as to how the rankings affect your overall score and the ability to be considered as an invitee of the higher end gigs.. |
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Bish 3.5 kHz

Joined: 22 Nov 2009 Posts: 3738 Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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From what I heard on the EWABS interview, Steven acknowledged that the customer input on the ranking side was fundamentally flawed and often used just as an aide memoir by the seeker. There is no real system in place that actively guides them to conscientiously rate the specific submitted performance or the VO overall. Acknowledgement is half the battle here, and I'm hopeful that these issues will be addressed at some time. Steven was very straight and seemed to want to hear about the issues, and (as he has been here) candid and open with his thoughts and opinions.
The ratings change your ranking "points", and then have a subsequent effect on the SmartCast system... that issue wasn't covered as far as I could tell, but if fundamental changes are going to be made to the ranking system at it's base input level, then the downstream effect would (hopefully) be changed for the better as well. Of course, this is my own speculation.
This is just my spin on what was said and there may have been a different take-away for others. My thanks to George and Dan for the EWABS platform, and to Steven for his appearance. _________________ Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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Steven Lowell

Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Hey I wanted to see how this played out because Rick Riley had the same issue, and it stemmed from a voice seeker who changed his rankings so drastically, it made little sense to many people. Let me address everything...
1. the ranking system and its application to getting invites on the site has been blown way out of proportion over the years, and it's the result of poor explanation and implementation. I know much about websites and heuristic algorithms for "matching what people want", oddly, because I met my wife on Yahoo dating and I had to know "Why they did something I could never do". I have often stated that "Voice123 is the Eharmony of voice casting" because the software uses matching heuristics that, if named differently, could apply to a dating website. Whether they admit it or not, "other websites" do it too. Websites have to use "absolute" explanations...and that doesn't always sit well in a business filled with very few absolutes, and proving what is "absolutely wrong" is difficult. More on that...
2. I did write the seeker to ask, "What happened? Were you not satisfied with what you received?". He never wrote back. By the way, we do explain the ranking system to voice seekers. They are fully aware of how it works. What is broken about it? It's hit a point where it stopped being useful. Still, you should know that those who use it, mean what they say.
3. I had to hire someone on Monday (really awesome client who is a long-time friend and calls me sometimes for help). I always find the ranking system is helpful in the moment, but we are not selling vacuum cleaners, so after client opinions....I had to go back and change some rankings. The fact I announced I was posting a job means I got some emails about it.
4. I won't ever say "Voice123 talent are not professional". I actually get defensive about it because you are talking about talented people, who just chose to work a different way, and also your colleagues who at one point may have worked in a major market, got burned out by it, and split for the suburbs. I completely understand what the "DIY" mindset is, and these talent are pioneers. I have heard millions of auditions, some painful but most intimidating by their professionalism. Many voice talent fail to realize that on casting sites, due to their demographic and "matching software", they are constantly going up against the same people. That reminds me of going to casting offices where I would see the same people all the time for my line of work.
5. Fun fact...about something I learned...Did you know? (worked at ESPN...cant help but say that LOL)
*Back in July, I wrote 200 of the top ranked people on Voice123 about beta-testing Premium Platinum subscription.
*The top 100 were not interested in it. Why? Because they were ranked so well due to the fact that they were VERY hard to find in a US-market, so Voice Seekers, just like voice talent, have accounts in which they save what happens. These talent spoke Mandarin, Greek, Russian, etc. and kids or seniors.
*The people from 101-200 were getting work, were ranked well and more often, and they have a larger client list, auditioning for several different websites, agents etc. It's the difference between a player batting a 1000% because its his first time up, and batting 350% because you can count on him for a hit every 3-4 times at bat. (the more successful player)
*Out of the 200, only 9 were interested after beta testing. Reason? They realized that getting invited to everything, and doing the selecting themselves without the software, was a huge pain in the a**. They also expressed that they enjoyed being ranked well, minus the few times someone goes nuts, which has nothing to do with the amount of work they get, because it helped them realize what clients they wanted to stay connected to.
*It was important for us to see this because people still want feedback on "How was I? Was I good, bad etc?". I did the same thing after EWABS. I bothered tons of people to ask, "How was I?". But I always realize afterwards, "I didnt really want to know. Just chill out."
6. As far as how math applies to this, and the formula involved, I have to tell you...Unless you understand this page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic_%28computer_science%29 , which I personally don't....You are better off following the theory behind it...
"Never listen to your critics, don't even ignore them."
There is no perfect machine for "ranking creativity", but it does seem to serve those who get work more often than those who don't. I have yet to hear someone say, "My total ranking is amazing and I never work." What do you do with something that works most of the time, but still annoys people enough that they will spread online content about it more than they will "good news".
Scrap something that works for better PR?
Put cute little cartoons or thumbs up to make it seem less painful?
Let the floodgates open?
Or...just accept that the people hiring are imperfect, too?
I dont like rankings and feedback from seekers on any site because clients are not making personal assessments of talents. They are judging if you are right for a job. And if you are not right...you did not meet the creative vision of the director...so move on and forget it. There is no "mouse click" that will teach a person to be a better talent.
ps- If you are stuck in the mindset "bad ranking means no jobs for me", I wish you would check out the Voice123 blog, webinar, and Youtube. It's not that black and white, nor was it ever.
s- Because I do this much explaining...indeed...something isnt right and that is what we have to work on this year.  |
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captain54 Lucky 700
Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 744 Location: chicago
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Steven Lowell wrote: |
1. the ranking system and its application to getting invites on the site has been blown way out of proportion over the years, and it's the result of poor explanation and implementation.  |
so why can't you clarify? All I care about is: I have been on the site less than a year and have a very good ranking, and would like to know why I'm not being invited to the upper level of gigs.. when I monitor my credit report online, it tells me exactly why my score is what it is.. I guess that's what I'm looking for
the closest you came was "we do explain the ranking system to voice seekers. It's hit a point where it stopped being useful. Still, you should know that those who use it, mean what they say". So., I'm not following.. |
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Steven Lowell

Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 13
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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First thing, this is not a "credit report system". That's an entirely different type of algorithm.
For Voice123, when it comes to "clarifying", I want you to first know that even after I "clarify it", you still will have that same question:
"So...Why am I not getting invited to this?" The main reason being...You have 4200 people involved in a math formula for each job posting and the reasons can change from job posting to job posting. You also dont know what other people are doing on the site. So here goes my attempt to clarify...
50% matches based on relevance ie. They checked off boxes in the project form, and it matched the boxes you had checked off.
Well, anyone can check off boxes and claim to be able to do something, right? I mean...have you ever seen someone post a profile and try to use it as an "agency". So, that's Quality problem....How do you solve it on a massive scale? You set up an automated matching system to solve the problem of, "Keeping the website as professional as possible, while securing job activity and professional business transactions".
Here is where it gets complicated...
Now, you have the other "50%" which is "Priority Index".
Made up of the following: See below as a "% of 50%."
Preferred Talent (25%) - voice seeker selects this
QA Approved (10%) - when your auditions are approved in QA by staff
Audition Ranking (25%) - voice seeker selects this
Preferred Talent Popularity (10%) - If a voice talent is preferred by voice seekers quite often for the parameters chosen. Theory to that...If lots of voice seekers posting jobs for audiobooks prefer you, you should be invited first.
Exposure Priority (30%) - This one is important. If you audition heavily, this algorithm will be sending the formula a message you maybe should get invited later than others. What rescues you from that issue are the algorithms I mentioned.
Expiration Proximity (10%) - The older your subscription the better. Solves the problem of people who jump on the site to audition for 1000 things and ask for a refund 5 days later.
Profile Seniority (5%) - Yes. Older profiles have a seniority. If you have been on Voice123 for many years, this works in your favor.
Note: Something I want to change..."Preferred Talent" is something a voice seeker does when they add you to a personalized short list of favorites. THAT info is not shown to talent. It should be.
One more note...You may see this very same type of math used on *other sites*, under a different name and different application. Voice123...the math determines when someone is invited, but if the quota for the job has been reached, you may not get invited. The algorithms are poorly explained, in my eyes, because they were created based around voice talent feedback and requests at a time when the company did not have voice talent on staff to translate it. What the site has done, ultimately, is become an automated casting director.
Oh by the way...the same math above is used to determine things on the search feature. If you are ranked well, and selective, the search feature may display you higher on page 1. The entire site is trying to balance out opportunities for everyone to work through an automated system, or a search feature.
On other sites, they invite everyone, then use similar math to determine where you audition shows up in a queue.
But here's the thing...If you follow a game plan of:
1. Auditioning for jobs that pay well.
2. Auditioning for voice seekers who come back often
3. Audition for professional voice seekers
The algorithms I describe HELP you shape who posts jobs on Voice123. What you choose to do with your profile, and audition for, determines what you will see most of. In fact, voice seekers who cant pay well take issue with Voice123. They find it "alienating".
Good. It means smarter auditioning choices are shaping the website in a positive way that allows people to make a career online. Let the low ball nonsense go elsewhere. Keep in mind, good paying work tends to have seasonal ups and downs. That's just people. Btw...I wont know whats happening to you, until I look at your profile, and I dont know who you are. based on your forum name, so I cant check myself.
I am sure there are things you can pick from this and state, "It's not fair", but for every "problem" one of the other algorithms offers a solution. Our site doesnt show bold numbers to say "You matched better than..."
What you can do...is click on "Hear Similar Voices" on your profile. You will see who you mainly compete against on a daily basis.
I feel I wrote a great deal, but I can also touch on how each of those algorithms came to be, and when it happened. Compared to when I started in 2007, the audition quality and professionalism of Voice123 talent has increased so much, that anyone who says "Its for 2nd class hacks" may get an earful from me (or massively long comment) because math aside, the site's talent has gotten so good at working online...things like SmartCast may have to go away. But that's just my opinion based on observations.
Nothing ever stays the same forever. |
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Lee Gordon A Zillion

Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 6864 Location: West Hartford, CT
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Steven Lowell wrote: |
Audition Ranking (25%) - voice seeker selects this
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Aha! Now we're getting somewhere. So Audition Ranking, as determined by the voice seekers, accounts for one quarter of one half of SmartCast's determination of who gets invited to what. That's 12½% of the total. So, if I have submitted a bunch of auditions and 25 of those people have ranked them, each ranking could have an influence of one half of one percent of the total. And I assume each "Finalist" cancels out one "Will Not Be Considered" and each "Considering" cancels out one "Not Likely" and "Maybe" is pretty much neutral, so unless you have an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of good or bad rankings, the net effect of rankings is negligible.
By the way, if people want rankings as a reflection of the quality of their work, I would much prefer to see a system similar to what eBay uses. in which buyers rank sellers based upon their experience from actual transactions. _________________ Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Festus Contributor

Joined: 10 Nov 2012 Posts: 34 Location: Stratford, Connecticut
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:12 am Post subject: Voice 123 Insanity |
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Tracy wrote:
In a way I kind of like the simplicity of Voices.com...check mark if it's listened to...thumbs up if they like it...and awarded if they really like it
#1 Tracy: I like your website for simplicity, and your voice and delivery, very smooth.
#2 You can thank me for that! "Thumbs up" system. I was a database analyst and frustrated with their old system of having to page to your projects page then find out the status. I suggested they use the repetitive, but unused column on their second page to give a red box for not reviewed, or green box for reviewed. Subsequently, they acted on the suggestion, which as you say is much more intuitive. When my subscription came up for renewal I asked for a free year or two as I provided them with an improved site and they offered me a 10% discount, (Big deal) I thought as a former IT consultant to Fortune 500 companies. I dropped off Voices anyway because I was being held hostage by their unscheduled job releases throughout the day. I kept waiting every hour for a new release I could respond to. You have to be within the first 20 "first responders" to be considered IMO. _________________ http://www.seniorvoiceovers.com
e-mail: info@seniorvoiceovers.com
Last edited by Festus on Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Steven Lowell

Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 13
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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HI Lee,
Let me correct something you stated, before it gets misunderstood:
Audition ranking score = 25% of the score used to make up the 50%
So, it has even less impact. The rankings you see are translated into numbers:
Finalist =100
Cons= 75
Maybe = 50
Not Likely =25
WBC = 0
Yes, if you have been on the site a long time, you may have tons of rankings. Your average score of all rankings comes out to a number that is used for that 25% of a total score used for 50% priority. I looked up your average ranking score when writing this, for example. You have many, so your rankings will not fluctuate as much as someone who just joined the website.
The issue with "rankings" these days, especially in a creative field, is that people tend to use them to save "who they like", and that may not always be related to how talented a person is.
Also, take into account what I call the "local cable station dilemma"....Meaning....Someone new to the business doing a casting may not understand the way a professional voice talent may think.
More so...there are human reasons people rank well, for things like attractive headshots, or the person writes in a way that makes one thing, "You know...I like this guy. Let me hold onto him. Maybe he will be better one day". Myself, in my job, I face that issue because "by the numbers", male community managers are only used 35% of the time.
I agree with you by the way. I would rather have it based upon the experience from hiring someone, but Ebay feedback has had its uglier times too. The longer I stayed on ebay, the less I wanted to be ranked because the more positive my outlook, the more I became a target for negativity. I also have used ebay since it came out, and even that feedback can get nasty sometimes. (and all over a pair of earrings or sports jersey) I work with situations involving non-payment matters and I can imagine what would happen if a feedback war took place. Websites know this and over the years, rankings have lost their impact on determining reality unless you are looking at an extreme case. (for example...when you go online and find a hotel is ranked 2 out of 5 stars, and its had millions of visitors)
The difference between ebay and voiceovers though....Two different industries. You are not selling "items". You are selling "your interpretation of a script, your speed at doing business, your understanding of audio quality and working online, and what you may be like to work with for the long haul". It's why voiceovers are a niche industry with a limited supply of voice talent who can actually work from home, and an unknown/unlimited amount of people who want to hire them.
What will never change, but I wish would, is the belief that a "ranking" is:
a. going to prevent people from getting work
b. help people become better voice talent
The flaw in all of it is that a false perception is floating around there that these rankings prevent people from getting work, or getting invited. If it were that simple, the system would be more abused than ebay's feedback system in 2001. Dealing with people on a massive scale is like a game of chess. You have to predict people's moves way in advance. Some are naturally good at it, but others need numbers to make moves.
All that aside...if you use Voice123 and commit to these basic professional principles of:
1. Only work for pros
2. Only work for people who listen to auditions
3. Only work for people paying well
4. Avoid cattle calls
5. Know your competition on the site
You will start to see things shape out because of the software.
If you do well on one website, like Voces or the others out there, it doesnt mean you should use other websites the same way. Each website has its own client base.
Someone PM'd me...ha!
Btw...I do like this forum. It has a nice look and feel to it. I dont mean to hi-jack anyone's time.  |
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Lee Gordon A Zillion

Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 6864 Location: West Hartford, CT
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Steven Lowell wrote: |
Audition ranking score = 25% of the score used to make up the 50%
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One quarter of one half (= 12.5%). That's what I said.
And when I referred to the eBay model for feedback, I mean just in the sense that feedback on voice talent should be given only by people who hire them. Just as eBay has done in recent years, I would make this a one-way street with buyers ranking seller but not the other way around, so as to avoid (the threat of) retaliatory low rankings of sellers by buyers who were given unfavorable marks. _________________ Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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