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Voice123 Insanity
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Steven Lowell



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL In the 5 years I dealt with the rankings confusion, Melissa managed to explain it better than anyone with that analogy.

While reading the response via phone, my wife was trying on clothes and asking me, "Do you like this one or this one?"

I would say, "That outfit definitely!".

She would then come back with a totally different outfit on. When I asked why she changed her mind, she told me, "You liked my outfit for reasons I didn't like."

Alas...creative choices are subjective. Statistics are pointless. But these facts are super-ceded by the demand of people who want to know, "How did I do!?!". And websites are supposed to supply answers.

When I took classes in voiceovers in the 90's, or in college, you NEVER asked for feedback. You waited for people to tell you something, and if they didnt, you forged ahead. Oddly enough...people who worked in that type of environment....tend to have an easier time working online. My first book on voiceovers was Susan Blu's Word of Mouth. She writes about avoiding "voiceover hangover". I took that advice to heart a long time ago, but people today do expect answers from google searches and that expectation blindly carries over.

Still...it just doesnt matter, and any impact on your ability to get invites is impossible to understand unless you have a computer science degree and understand meta-heuristic algorithms.

I approach it like I did golf...."You get off your game, when you care about things that dont matter. It makes you play the game a little out of control, and you have no one to blame but yourself for letting it get to you."
That's my main beef with stats...With even the smallest data, you can create false truths around what really matters.


Focus on what matters: Online communication, audio engineering, marketing, and copy reading. "Standards" and "stats" are irrelevant to the artist. If ya dont like it...leave it. Leslie...you have a point, too. We cant complain about a garden, if we are the one's planting the seeds for what grows next.
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Bish
3.5 kHz


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some good points and some good explanations. Any P2P discussion is going to bifurcate into two separate, although undoubtedly related, topics. The first is easy... is it worth doing? That, my dear fellow VOs, is a personal choice made from how well it fits into your own business plan. Currently, it fits into mine, but I totally understand why it doesn't fit into others... I also understand the disdain in which they hold these sites... 'nuff said.

The second is our own feelings about how the site is run. As paying subscribers we should have a voice and feel entitled to make observations, complain bitterly and dispute the birthright of the site owners. This is the baggage that comes with paying for something... phone service, cable TV, etc.

P2P... I have to say that I abhor the way this abbreviation has been misappropriated. Pay-to-Play is a reasonable description and explains it well. I object to the hi-jack that's in progress at the moment to call it Peer-to-Peer. It's not. It will never be. You cannot remove the negative connotations of the Pay-to-Play label by using a warm-and-fuzzy networking term. I've seen this bandied about on websites and in interviews by P2P employees. To be fair, it's the other place, not V123... but it strikes me as cynical and purposefully manipulative. Stop it.

Here's the rub... most of the people here and either full-time, want to be full-time, serious part-time or at least are really trying to get there. This is a place for working professionals and as such any observations come from that place. A lot of the time we are being judged by the rank-amateurs on V123. Projects may be posted by non-production people... by the company owner or the department head.... they may have even given the job to the receptionist! So, Joe The Plumber gets to say that you are crap... fine, that's his opinion, give the job to someone else... but his opinion can go on your record, and that can have a real effect on your ability to see auditions and get yourself in front of clients. This is why the system is flawed. I don't enter a negative rating with the BBB just because I didn't like the plumber's quote! Any system that restricts my ability to work based on the opinion of someone with no professional experience or expertise is fundamentally flawed.
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
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Ben Amos
Contributor III


Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Posts: 83
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melissa, that was certainly the easiest explanation I've ever seen.

Steven, so glad to see you on here! Deborah Richards and I were wringing our hands at lunch this week over the hole you left.

I'm still very early in my career, but the truth I embraced very early on was this- If the casting director looks at the script and hears Steven Lowell's voice in his head before he puts the job out there, then no matter the venue- agency, P2P, Craigslist, etc- then there's nothing I'm going to be able to do to overcome that. I don't sound like Steven. I don't know that that's what that CD is looking/listening for, and he might not either until he hears Steven's audition. It doesn't pay to get all bent out of shape over something I have ZERO control over. I can control auditioning for jobs that are a good fit, and staying away from the ones that likely aren't. I don't sound like Sam Eliot, so why on earth would I go for that job?

Sometimes I win on auditions. My first V123 booking came from a private invitation. According to the seeker, my submission was the very first one he listened to. To him, I captured the essence of the character, and the other 51 auditions couldn't overtake that impression. More often than not, I'm (and everyone else that auditions) is on the losing end of that imbalance. It's activity-based. Mud against the metaphorical wall, as it were.
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Lee Gordon
A Zillion


Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6864
Location: West Hartford, CT

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

melissa eX wrote:
just 'cause you can't see the extra pounds doesn't mean they're not there


Perception is reality. Wink

And Steven, best of luck on whatever direction your career path takes you from here on. I know you are no longer at Voice123 but if you were, I would suggest to you a new ranking classification: "Does This Make Me Look Fat?" Shocked
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Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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melissa eX
MMD


Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 2794
Location: Lower Manhattan, New Amsterdam, the original NYC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee owes me a new keyboard.

Good to see you here Steven!
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todd ellis
A Zillion


Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 10529
Location: little egypt

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Does This Make Me Look Fat?"


... and the answer is ALWAYS "no".
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Bish
3.5 kHz


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

todd ellis wrote:
... and the answer is ALWAYS "no".

And never, ever say "Compared to what?" Well, not unless you're very close to the door. Devil
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.
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ccpetersen
With a Side of Awesome


Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 3708
Location: In Coherent

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd -- it makes perfect sense. If you've walked the walk then you can lend that expertise to help others select a VO for their projects. I often wonder how much, if any of that type of expertise exists at the P2P joints.
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captain54
Lucky 700


Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 744
Location: chicago

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven Lowell wrote:

Alas...creative choices are subjective. Statistics are pointless. But these facts are super-ceded by the demand of people who want to know, "How did I do!?!". And websites are supposed to supply answers.

When I took classes in voiceovers in the 90's, or in college, you NEVER asked for feedback. You waited for people to tell you something, and if they didnt, you forged ahead.


That's missing the point entirely... V123 has a system that provides statistics and feedback.. The thread on the forum raises the question; "If you are offering feedback as part of my $295 subscription, would you mind backing up that feedback with some logic and rationale? Otherwise, please revamp it, or eliminate it altogether.
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Bill Roberts
Contributor IV


Joined: 08 Dec 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call me dazed and confused, but when I read all the techno crap about ranking systems, it makes my head spin. My ranking system is simple…did the check clear? and did the Client pass or fail? So far all my clients are 100%.

Sorry…just had to vent, now back to our regularly scheduled program!
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Bish
3.5 kHz


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Roberts wrote:
... now back to our regularly scheduled program!

Maybe not scheduled, but this is a regular program Smile
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11075
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henceforth I shall refer only to POS sites .... POS being Pile O' Shite. I will no doubt get a thank you note as the owners of such businesses do not like them being called P2P sites.

How public spirited am I?
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BruceG
Been Here Awhile


Joined: 01 Jun 2012
Posts: 258
Location: just south of Boston, MA

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philip Banks wrote:
How public spirited am I?


...and it's Philip FTW Wink
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"What was that? An exhibition? We need emotional content." - Bruce Lee, Enter The Dragon
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Steven Lowell



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I will no doubt get a thank you note as the owners of such businesses do not like them being called P2P sites.


Philip, from my observations and POV, the owners don't care how you personally think, nor will they make the time to reach out to you. There is a reason for it...

The entire 6 yr time I worked there, I remember you publicly hating on all P2P's on this forum, and an old one they shut down. People who own websites view it as "forum trolling", so they stay out of it. They have customer service teams to handle complaints. I have no memory of the last time you wrote my former job. I have a vague memory of meeting you in December 2008 at a mixer in NYC.

But...seven pages ago, I looked at your profile. I was astonished to find out you still pay to use them. I think in the entire 6 yr time I worked for it, I remember you hating the website. POS...P2P...whatever....

Why do you support businesses you strongly disagree with?

Maybe it still exists because of people like you are in abundance, who hate it but pay for it, and bury their ethics long enough just for the work?

I "get it" much more than you realize. I can make snarky comments all day long for people's entertainment, but true change starts with actions. There is a belief that the act of paying to use it, dictates one can complain as they wish, or say what they want about the company. I would say "Yeah" to that belief, if this were a McDonalds fastfood biz, but P2P's are small businesses with a small group of people who can get work, in a niche industry.

If the best people want the best changes, they should be able to communicate it in a serious manner that doesn't read like dismissive sarcasm or trolling.
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graemespicer
Been Here Awhile


Joined: 25 Feb 2012
Posts: 243
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uh oh ...

(pass the popcorn)
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Graeme Spicer
Voice Actor

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tel • (416) 716-2246
email • graeme@graemespicer.com
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