VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[Mike Harrison]

(as posted in LinkedIn's Voice Over Professionals group)

A friend and former audio producer, who now does other media-related work, says that he requires full payment before delivering his jobs, but not before providing the service (doing the work). I should point out (I failed to on LinkedIn) that some of his clients are major record labels. Looking at it from the standpoint of a voice-over client, does anyone see this as being different from requiring full payment even before recording? Either way, the client must pay in full before receiving the work.

I don't know if she's a member here, but NYC VO Sandra Espinoz commented:

[Jason Huggins]

Well, if she believes that the client can track a VO down and run his name through the mud...can't a VO do the same thing to a producer? Personally, the only time I ever ask clients to pay up front is if there are a tiny operation (like emailing me from JohnsProductions@yahoo.com) and I have the slightest inkling that they don't have anything to lose by taking my stuff.

This is such a public business that if a producer aired something he/she stole, it wouldn't be too hard to find 'em. I don't even open the mic for anything more than an audition unless I am sure a client is going to pay. Haven't been wrong yet.

[Bruce]

Wow. The paranoia and distrust of these people! I'm just guessing, but I think they take a lot of antacids.

I've billed hundreds of different clients over the past 20 years (I can't remember much beyond that these days) and not one has stiffed me. Yes, I get payment in advance from newcomers who come out of the blue with no good information on their creditworthiness, but if they're referred by someone I trust or a solid looking company with a professional attitude I extend them credit with no fears. Life's too short to mess with all that worry.

B
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VO-BB Member #31 Enlisted June, 2005

I'm not a Zoo, but over the years I've played one on radio/TV. .

[Scott Pollak]

Ditto, Bruce. Verbatim. Ditto.

I guess the only thing I'd add is that it is NORMAL in the business world to purchase goods or services, get invoiced and then pay 30-60 days out. That is the NORM. If you do as Bruce and I do, it also builds a good working relationship based on professionalism and trust.

To me, requiring upfront payment - other than the rare exceptions Bruce noted - just reeks of mistrust and non-professionalism.
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Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.

www.voicebyscott.com

[Lance Blair]

If I was dealing with a record label, (or other unscrupulous businesses) I would want money up front. Anybody else in the real economy? I wouldn't dare ask for it. Seriously, we are tertiary (at best) vendors. The people that pay us need to get paid first, and that process needs to be respected. I've been stiffed twice in twelve years. I've lost more money by flubbing my invoices now and then than by chasing down deadbeats. Looking After Number One is usually more stress than warranted.
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Skype: globalvoiceover
and now, http://lanceblairvo.com the blog is there now too!

[Lee Gordon]

[Scott Pollak]

One more thing to consider. In my previous post I mentioned the 'norm' in business. I would venture to say many of us do a lot of work for large businesses, whether they're corporations or even large production companies, but that is to say: we're still GENERALLY doing work for entities other than a one person or mom-and-pop operation.

I was a video producer for BellSouth for 11 years and if a talent or supplier that we wanted to use needed payment or cash up front, it's not that it wasn't impossible to do, but it was close to it. And if we had an option of choosing the guy who could do the job today, and then submit the invoice to us, or the guy we'd have to get a p.o. for and submit a payment request and then wait 30 days to get the project done.... well, gee, who do you think we'd choose? And doesn't it seem that the majority of the jobs are "need it now!"?

I like making things easy for my clients.
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Scott R. Pollak
Clients include Pandora, NPR Atlanta, Wells Fargo, Cisco, Humana, Publix, UPS, AT&T, HP, Xerox and more.

www.voicebyscott.com

[Mike Harrison]

This is clearly another topic on which thoughts/practices vary greatly. And that's the reason I started this thread.

Many of my clients are larger companies, and there's never been a problem getting paid in a timely manner by just about all of them. Sure, sometimes something might slip through the cracks causing a delay but, generally, it's all good.

However, there have been several instances where an established entity has screwed around: a British production house that stopped answering emails once their payment was due; a Florida studio that replied to emails and phone calls after payment went beyond 30 days, but offered a new lie each time; and a well-known facility in Dubai that began the relationship by first offering full advance payment (perhaps intended to get me to agree to take the job), then on the morning of the ISDN session (6am on a Sunday to accommodate their schedule) said that payment would come immediately after the session. Then within 10 days. And that later changed to 30 days. I graciously awaited payment that finally took 60 days. What was the purpose of this stringing along? Why do people say things they don't mean at all?

Scott, a friend used to do work for the parent company of one of the clients listed in your signature. Huge company. Been around forever. Payment cycle? 110 days. Every time. But many times he still had to call and schmooze to get payment even then.

A new client (a major healthcare company) as of a year ago informed me right off the bat that their pay cycle was 60 days. I would've preferred 30, but I happily accepted it, and have since done a number of jobs for them. Just a few weeks ago, I completed a group of five jobs, all under a single purchase order, and submitted my invoice. I was very pleasantly surprised when, only days later, a check for the full amount came in. So, yes, sometimes nice things happen.

I realize asking for advance payment can and does come off as mistrusting and 'low-class' to some. And I certainly don't ask it of every client; I try to do as much research on new clients as possible to make an educated guess before making a decision. It's wonderful that you and Bruce and, I'm sure, many others have never been stiffed. But the fact remains: we are individuals doing (global) business purely electronically. And we are not banks. Retails stores have had storewide security cameras and RFID scanners at their doors for decades... why? Because some people will try to get away with whatever they can get away with. And to some, unfortunately – big or small – agreeing to pay a couple of hundred dollars to someone thousands or tens of thousands of miles away is easy to do... and just as easy to screw.

Yes, I also like making things easy for my clients, too. But to a point.
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Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.

[Bruce]

Ronald Reagan said it (omg I can't believe I'm quoting him), "Trust yet verify".... at least to your soul's satisfaction. If the deal seems a little hinky then tread cautiously. If someone from an oil-rich country offers you cash up front, take it! I'm thinking they're used to it.

I did the vast majority of my political commercials last season through production companies who I knew were getting their/my money up front so I didn't mind billing them. The campaign direct deals were all cash on the barrel head. Heck, Hillary took over three years to pay off her $10M debt from 2008.

B
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VO-BB Member #31 Enlisted June, 2005

I'm not a Zoo, but over the years I've played one on radio/TV. .

[Bill Roberts]

I have never received one payment prior to performance and delivery. Also happy to say that I have never been stiffed for a single dime, and have had only one client go past 90. The funny thing is that the one that went past 90 had a client request me, and the (4) invoices magically were paid prior to that new project script being sent to my inbox. My recommendation would be to invoice with finished production, let them know you appreciate the business and look forward to the next project. This lets the client know that they have an open revolving account, with no credit checks, and forms to fill out. Or you can join SAG-AFTRA to make sure you never get stiffed!
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VO-BB Member # 764 (Dec 2009)

[Philip Banks]

People pay when they get around to it, for me that is never in advance. For those who insist on 90 days or more my fee is higher, those I know i will have to chase higher still. Those who lie or use "tactics" I mess with their heads.

"Your invoice hasn't been paid!! I'll look into it"

"Ok. I'll hold"

[jsgilbert]

None of the actors I've ever hired were dumb enough to ask to be paid in advance.

The dumb ones didn't get hired.

On the other hand, I have never done a v.o. where the client wasn't given billing terms for payment (mostly 30 days).

It wasn't until V.O. 2.0 that I even heard of paying talent upfront or the utterly insipid advice of watermarking auditions, or a few other things.
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j.s. gilbert

js@jsgilbert.com
www.jsgilbert.com

"today is the first day of the rest of the week"

[ccpetersen]

I have, on occasion asked for a deposit on work but the circumstances were unique enough that I couldn't really generalize them out to the "general" business world.

It does come down to researching the client if you don't know them (and if you can), and then being businesslike in your invoicing and followups. You're providing a service/product and it's not different in that regard just because it's a non-tangible widget you're delivering.
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