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SAG and AFTRA questions
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jsgilbert
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Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 468
Location: left coast of u.s.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the big problems I've found getting clients to agree to a union contract, when I produce in particular, isn't often with regards to the overall session fees, health and welfare, etc., but has to do with the potential cost over time.

For example, a relatively very small number of video games are being produced under union contract, despite the fee structure not carrying residual fees. This is because of the potential additional fee requirements. For example, showing the project at E3 or to potential investors, clients,etc. means having to pay Category 1 and Category 2 fees on top. Putting the project online carries an additional fee. And even using sound bites from the game on a commercial could mean having to pay SAG national commercial rates to the actors in the game.

Additionally, as I have mentioned before, because I work a bit in automobile advertising, a tiny fraction of tier 2 and tier 3 car advertising is done under union contract; that is local dealer spots and associations, such as "Atlanta Honda Dealers Association".

I've also noticed an incredible trend among many large advertisers who had been producing under union contracts to (in the past 2 years) switch to producing non-union. In many cases, these companies are filled with AFL-CIO employees and I wonder what the union is doing.

And talk to agents these days and they will tell you that scale and half or higher is getting harder and harder for anyone but a fairly decent celeb to get. I just had two union projects re-negotiate on me from double scale and scale and a half to straight scale.

I'm not sure what the future will bring, but I found out that a nice union gig I did that was paying me around $7,000 per cycle is now being done by a non-union talent for around $300 flat.

And I will add by saying that my buddies who many have made $250,000+ yearly as union v.o. talent and now scrambling for work. A few in particular have mentioned their numbers dropping to 20 or even 10% of what they had made just a few years ago.

There is a tremendous amount a voice talent must consider regarding their personal path. I wouldn't want to dismay somebody from going the union route and my criticism of the unions is nothing more than a patriot who criticizes his country. But when it comes to voice over, there may be something rotten in the state of SAG/AFTRA.
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Scott Pollak
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: SAG and AFTRA questions Reply with quote

colinsz1 wrote:
Ricky, what prompted the question was whether or not in the next 10 years if being in a Union would be an absolute necessity or not.


No.

p.s.: You may be the first person here to ever call him "Ricky" and live to tell about it.
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Bob Bergen
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JS brings up very valid observations. Blame can be pointed to a number of areas.
- a commercial strike that coincided with the launch of online non union vo casting sites; a casting process that is faster and simpler than hiring union talent
- 13 years of conditioning and creating a culture of both non union buyers and talent
- a union (formerly two unions) that were oblivious to any of this
- half the country consisting of right to work states
- the anonymity of vo, where we have a culture of union talent working off the card under assumed names in the privacy of their own home with a "what they don't know won't kill me" work ethic

There are many more. But all of this has resulted in at least 40% of what was union less than 15 years ago is now non union. Other results: agents cannot take on newer talent in the numbers they used to because it's getting harder and harder to keep their signed talent working. LA agents used to sign new non union actors. Not so much today. More actors who used to make mid six figures are now struggling to qualify for health benefits. More people than ever before are working in vo daily but fewer statistically are enjoying the kind of income and career a working vo actor enjoyed less than 15 years ago.

It's a blessing and a curse. I don't see things changing as the non union culture cannot relate to the union culture. And the union cannot relate to actors willing to work without benefits and protection. When the majority of vo was in the major markets, the union and the majority of working actors were on the same page. But the Internet handed vo to the entire country. As this happened the union was oblivious. This was a mistake. But, it is what it is.

I am in the minority. I am not willing to damage myself, my fellow actors, or the industry as a whole by working off the card or going fi core just to have the best of both worlds. Yet. I worked and sacrificed for too many years volunteering at the union(s) on behalf of my fellow actors. I lost a lot of work and made a handful of enemies. It was the right thing to do.

Now, I said "yet" because it's getting harder and harder to turn down a 6 figure non union offer for the sake of the union. Too many of my fellow vo actors don't seem to have a problem working off the card or go fi core. Yet they all benefit from the advances and protection I've worked so hard to get them. That sound you hear is me being slapped in the face. But I did say yet. I give this 5 more years. If after that I don't see a substantial shift, I'm going to reevaluate my position. At some point it's just stupid business to not take a high paying gig because a huge percentage of my fellow actors are perpetuating the non union trend. I'm fortunate that I got into this business when I did. And, much if what I do (animation) will always be primarily union due to celebrities.

If I do make this change in 5 or so years, this is a huge risk. And, going back to what I said earlier, there's no way to succeed without risk. I just hate the prospects of that risk being the better/smarter one.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Bob for your thoughtful, well stated, and soul baring contributions to this issue.


B
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bobsouer
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Joined: 15 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

Like Bruce, I want to thank you for your candor and for your excellent observations. My transition to FiCore took place after the strike in 2000. The details are unimportant, but the actions of my union(s) during that strike took all the wind out of my sails for it/them.

When the merger went through last year, I decided to try to make things work going union only. As you've been able to see, at least for those of us living in "fly-over" territory, that's something of a pipe dream now.
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Bob Bergen
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Joined: 22 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobsouer wrote:

When the merger went through last year, I decided to try to make things work going union only. As you've been able to see, at least for those of us living in "fly-over" territory, that's something of a pipe dream now.


I hear ya Bob. And although I'm not on the board right now, I still chair the vo committee. One of my goals is to talk the powers that be into allowing me to bring fi core actors into the fold. We need to hear their perspective, get statistics, etc. They need to be educated on the realities of the vo actor in the fly over states. Fi core and those who worked off the card has historically been shunned by union members and staff. Truth be told, I understand this. When I started out 30 plus years ago, I was asked to do non union work. Although I could have used the money, I decided to take the high road. I knew I could pay my bills doing day and night jobs, which I did. For many years. But I knew how damaging it would be for the industry to take part in doing non union work. And even more damaging going fi core. If the buyers had a huge talent pool of fi core actors to choose from, they'd have no incentive to go union. There go residuals and P&H!!! Plus, I also felt you were as good as the company you kept. I wanted to be associated with the best of the best. My career goals demanded I not be included in this non union pool. Interestingly, this pool of actors working non union 30 years ago, for the most part, were never able to secure the top agents or take their careers where they wanted to. They were tainted. Things are different today. As I said, this is due to technology, geography, and cultures that don't understand or relate to each other.. But the union still sees the vo industry here in LA. By traveling and teaching around the country, I feel like I have an understanding and a handle on the realities of the business.

I want to give fi core actors and even non union actors a platform at the union to discuss freely and without penalty or judgement.
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bobsouer
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob,

I would be willing to make a trip to LA on my own dime to take part in such a discussion if you are able to arrange such a thing and assuming I have a hole in my schedule big enough to fit the trip in.
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Bob Souer (just think of lemons)
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heyguido
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Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 to both Bobs. The business is changing.... And the union should, too.
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Don Brookshire
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cyclometh
King's Row


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working hard to be able to join SAG-AFTRA. I'm eligible right now, and could have joined anytime after the first couple of months this year based on my audiobook work.

I REALLY want to be in the union for a bunch of reasons. Philosophically, I'm a union guy. But I also want to be able to access H&R benefits for my family, as other insurance options are a nightmare. To that end I've been seeking work covered under SAG-AFTRA agreements whenever possible.

However, I don't yet make enough in audiobooks alone to support myself. It's close, but not quite there yet. And that income's not always consistent. I supplement it with a lot of smaller gigs, and without that secondary income I wouldn't be able to make ends meet.

But the moment I join the union I'll have to tell my non-union customers (at least the non-audiobook ones) I can't work with them any longer; I see the odds that they'd agree to a SAG-AFTRA contract as practically nil. So all my non-audiobook clients go poof, and the income they give me goes with it. And I'm not willing to work off the card.

So, rock- meet hard place. I think the union has a lot of work to do, and I'd love to be part of that discussion.
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Scott Pollak
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyclometh wrote:

But the moment I join the union I'll have to tell my non-union customers (at least the non-audiobook ones) I can't work with them any longer; I see the odds that they'd agree to a SAG-AFTRA contract as practically nil.


I disagree (and I'm non-union). You tell your non-union customers you're excited about continuing your outstanding working relationship with them, but now that you're union, you'll have to discuss the rate structure.

You don't know for a fact they'll dis you because of that. They may be (and likely ARE) so happy with your work that they'd be open to renegotiating. We assume so many things about clients - usually negative - and we're so often wrong.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heyguido wrote:
The business is changing.... And the union should, too.


They are, but kicking and screaming and cowering in a few cases. Take audiobooks for $225 per finished hour (about $40 per hour of your time if you edit and master). Take their contracts with "new media" producers as in web videos. These producers can pay you "whatever we want to" I've been told "so long as we tack on the appropriate H&R payment". I've been "blessed" to get $200 per studio hour on those union gigs.

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