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Mike Harrison
M&M
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 2029
Location: Equidistant from New York City and Philadelphia, along the NJ Shore
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 Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:41 am Post subject: Part of what we're up against |
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Despite our best efforts to make prospects understand the benefits of hiring professional voice talent (I mean REAL professionals), there are websites of those who produce videos who clearly don't understand the value either. And they pass their ignorance on to their website visiting prospects. The following is pasted from one such website:
| Quote: | Once you have a script, you’ll need a voiceover. Some options are:
Voices.com: This site has a large network of professional voice actors to choose from.
Craigslist: Ah yes, old reliable. You can find just about anything on crazy Craigslist, including voiceovers.
Fiverr: Yup, you can get a decent voiceover for your explainer video for just $5 on Fiverr! You’ll probably have to pay a bit more than that ($5 is usually the starting price – some charge by the second, others by the word. Chances are you won’t be in the lowest price bracket). Still, you aren’t likely to find a voiceover anywhere for cheaper. |
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Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11074
Location: Portgordon, Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Not really an issue. For the majority of video productions, the vast majority, the hugest majority, almost all video productions a "that'll do voice" recorded with some degree of adequacy will suffice.
My job is to ensure I care how good I sound as that's what I am selling exclusively to people who are buying as opposed to people who aren't and are unlikely to ever buy.. |
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Karyn OBryant
Cinquecento
Joined: 23 Jul 2013
Posts: 561
Location: Portlandia-adjacent
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
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They sell watches at Wal-Mart. They sell watches at Tiffany & Co. There is a market for both. The Tiffany & Co. people aren't worried about the Wal-Mart watch-buyers, because those folks aren't their customers.
And so it is with voiceover.
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Pretending to be other people since 1986.
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Bish
3.5 kHz
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
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To be fair... there's a lot of stuff out there where the video is as bad as the audio. I'd be interested in hearing if the real video production professionals echo our concerns about some guy working with crappy whiteboard animation or badly stitched-together stock footage all put together with a laptop and iMovie.
"That'll do" is pervasive across the industry. With the multiple outlets and demands for more and more content, quantity has trumped quality. Some call it an erosion of standards across the board... while others call it the democratization of the media. As the bottom end plummets to new depths, it becomes far less relevant to my business model.
If my job is to service Ferraris, I'm not worried by a Kwik-Fit exhaust and maintenance centre popping up on every corner.
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Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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Bob Bergen
CM
Joined: 22 Apr 2008
Posts: 979
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Karyn OBryant wrote: | They sell watches at Wal-Mart. They sell watches at Tiffany & Co. There is a market for both. The Tiffany & Co. people aren't worried about the Wal-Mart watch-buyers, because those folks aren't their customers.
And so it is with voiceover. |
Well, gotta tell ya, this was exactly the philosophy of the union 15 years ago when V123 and the e-vo industry took off. This was the infancy days of online vo. I went to the powers that be at the union with a half inch thick stack of V123 auditions. I warned that this is the future of vo. Vo is being handed to the masses around the country on a silver modem. People who don't relate to the business of what we knew of as professional vo, nor do they care or need to. They just know that for the first time ever an industry is being electronically handed to them, giving them opportunities they never dreamed of. The income is relative as many live in cheaper areas of the country. The extra income, even what we would consider small, has value.
At the time, over 90% of vo was union. The powers that be did not see this as a threat, or that those pursing e-vo had the chops to compete or make a difference. They believed that if professional buyers wanted professional vo talent they will always choose to work with union talent.
I told them they were being arrogant, elitist, and shortsighted. And I predicted that e-vo will do to our vo industry what sound did to silent movies and what movies in general did to vaudeville. Our vo industry as we know it will become the monitory as buyers, talent, and audiences become more and more conditioned and accepting to the new landscape.
This went on deaf ears.
The lesson: History repeats itself. The next generation is just around the corner and they multiply like bunnies. And everything is relative. Today's Tiffany of vo used to be Walmart in the grande scheme of things. Yesterday's Tiffany of vo SHOULD have been worried about the e-world of Walmart vo. |
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ConnieTerwilliger
Triple G
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3381
Location: San Diego - serving the world
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Bish
3.5 kHz
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 3738
Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:55 am Post subject: |
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There are some great points up there (as Bob's usually are!)
I think we have to draw a line between the cheapening of "premium services" and those services that are simply at the bottom end of the market. I will never get a union scale (or equivalent) telephony gig from the guy who sees his choices as going to Fiver or getting Doreen from accounts to do it (she has a great voice!). The guy who has paid $75 bucks for his whiteboard animation is never going to consider $300 as a viable price for the voice. These jobs can fall off the edge of the cliff... I don't even want them on my radar.
Where the problem lies, is where "reasonable" projects have been cheapened. The explainer that would have paid $500 is now offering $150. This is taking the meat from my plate. This is a two-pronged argument... is the guy forcing the market down by only paying $150 for a $500 value? (and there are plenty of intermediaries and talent who enable this)... or is he just happy to pay less for a sub-standard product? Both of these scenarios take money from my pocket.
This is far more worrying than Doreen from accounts or her Fiver alternative.
_________________
Bish a.k.a. Bish
Smoke me a kipper... I'll be back for breakfast.
I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls... I will not feed the trolls. |
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Rick Riley
Flight Attendant
Joined: 12 Aug 2011
Posts: 807
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: |
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And Walmart was bested by Amazon. Sure Walmart has beat the competition on many things, but I can go to the Walmart site, get the price of what I’m looking for and then go to Amazon and beat it. Maybe it will be the same price or even a little higher on Amazon, although it’s usually not, but figuring in my time to go get it, gas, wear and tear on my car, when I can just have it brought to my door, Amazon winds hands down every time. One of my friends even has his toilet paper set up through Amazon to be delivered on a regular basis. Doesn’t have to remember to get it and saves money in doing so. I wonder if there’s a forum where Safeway and Von’s and Publix and Kroger are badmouthing their unions because Amazon is taking their toilet paper business.
Personally, I don’t find Fiver to be an equation in my business plan. Either working with it or fighting against it. I have multiple agents and go through V123 and Voices on occasion as well. And I’m still astonished on a regular basis at the remuneration I DO get from the spoken word. It may not be what it was when the union had total control, but most of us can make in an hour what the majority of the population who labor make in a day, and on occasion a week or even a couple of months. It’s a crazy business and I consider it to be a blessing that it’s my vocation.
One of the great poets of our time laid it out very well back in 1964…
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin’
And the first one now will later be last
For the times they are a-changin’
-Bob Dylan, The Times They are a Changin’
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Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the Paramedics
www.rickrileyvoice.com |
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Mike Harrison
M&M
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 2029
Location: Equidistant from New York City and Philadelphia, along the NJ Shore
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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It was the propagation of the "that'll do" (ut bonus satis) mindset that caused me to post this thread.
In the 60s, there was concern that computers were going to "take" people's jobs. After computers made their way to desktops, people with little to no experience in, say, graphic arts were now calling themselves graphic artists... because THEY COULD. Then it was Audio Production. Anyone who loves listening to music at deafening levels and are able to afford Pro Tools now consider themselves audio producers. And video producers... and voice-over talent... yadda yadda yadda.
When it's so apparent that so many are easily swayed by the actions of others; doing things simply because others do them, it's only a matter of time...
Producers, "voice-seekers" and stockholders are people, too. After all, it's just talking... right?
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Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.
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Rob Ellis
M&M
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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The mid to upper echelons of voice buyers are answering to their clients( and in many cases the client's agency rep), and any weak link in their chain of production will reflect back on them----especially if they are directing the talent with the client listening in.
Any business person of even average intelligence understands this. At this level IMO they are very unlikely to risk a snafu in their production by choosing a voiceover person on Fiver or Craig's List. Some might, but they are likely to find gaps in one or more of the following areas:
The talent's availability
The talent's recording chain/environment
The talent's talent and/or experience
Are there exceptions to the above? Probably, but IMO the exceptions are the exception. A person who has truly invested the time, money and blood sweat and tears to be able to perform at the high levels required by medium to high-level clients is unlikely to offer themselves in a fire sale. |
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Deirdre
Czarina Emeritus
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 13023
Location: Camp Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I predicted that e-vo will do to our vo industry what sound did to silent movies and what movies in general did to vaudeville. |
The union certainly blew it with refusing to realize your point. but this comparison with movies wiping out vaudeville is part of "union mentality" that is troublesome. It's tough to sweep back the tide— and this analogy is similar to the UAW's beef with robotics.
When I joined AFTRA, I was told I couldn't self-produce any more.
The performers' union should be studying and celebrating technology and has instead been a dinosaur frozen in a glacier.
In some parts of the spectrum, VO is a commodity. When productions want a better result, they'll hire a pro. So— yeah, there's less of that, but there's work to be found— good work. It's just not necessarily centered in the big cities any more— is that the problem? The city actors don't get first pick of the good stuff? and the union is still fixated on punishing actors in flyover country instead of helping us make the union's collective bargaining work for us.
We need to be able to self-sig. Damn. Think of all the "union work" we already have.
Bob and I were recently talking about the days when an agent helped to develop your career. That's gone, too. That's life.
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DBCooperVO.com
IMDB
Last edited by Deirdre on Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11074
Location: Portgordon, Scotland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Every agent should have a slogan/email signature "Pointless auditions don't delete themselves". Part of the problem in the US is the move big time to audition for everything.
Who ELSE is eating LA's lunch? Bristol in the west of England and Belfast Northern Ireland both places working on major studio based productions, the former for Disney and the latter Game of Thrones. Locations? George Square in Glasgow was transformed by the makers of World War Z to make it look like Philadelphia.
Everyone is fiddling while Rome burns. When SAG-AFTRA dies the Coroner will show the cause of death as Suicide. I would happily join the US union today, I've tried to join in the past but the people to whom I spoke simply read something off their PC screen and sent me on my way.
In the TV comedy "Blackadder Goes Forth" one of the best characters was Captain Darling. While everyone was fighting in the trenches in World War 1 he sat in an office some where in France safely behind the lines ordering paper clips and pencils. Today, Timothy Darling MBA is alive and well in offices across the USA and the UK administering disaster and misery. Do not let him get away with it!
If you are a utility Voice Over, meaning that you simply read something whilst recording as opposed to being chosen because of your excellence or fame, there is a living to be made. There was, is now and always will be a market for "I know a guy(gal) who can ..." all you have to do is make yourself known to as many people as possible.
What to do? For marketing and business purpose stop using so-called Social Media in order to talk about voice over work ESPECIALLY to other Voice Over people. REMOVE YOURSELF FROM MY SIGHT UPON THIS VERY DAY! Start talking to the guy you want to say to someone else "I know a Guy "
By all means bitch about Voyzes-Cannuck dot com or post yet another A/B mic shoot out this time NOT wearing your false beard but do it at the weekend or during your lunch break NOT while you are supposed to be working.
Forget Selfies and be a little Selfish. There is no community, no market, no industry there is just you and one voice over session per day will make you a good living. FOCUS don't Facebook.
THINK ON! |
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Lee Gordon
A Zillion
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6864
Location: West Hartford, CT
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Rick Riley wrote: |
For the times they are a-changin’
-Bob Dylan, The Times They are a Changin’ |
Damn right the times, they are a-changin'. Bob Dylan is now doing commercials for IBM. Don't trust anyone over 30.
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Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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ConnieTerwilliger
Triple G
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3381
Location: San Diego - serving the world
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melissa eX
MMD
Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 2794
Location: Lower Manhattan, New Amsterdam, the original NYC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When SAG-AFTRA dies the Coroner will show the cause of death as Suicide. |
And that's the really sad part of this.
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www.melissaeXelberth.com
from crime...to the divine(R)
bilingual vo |
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