VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

Rob Ellis · M&M Joined: 01 Aug 2006 Posts: 2385 Location: Detroit

Some thoughts on the 416:

Upon first getting it in 2007, I was not immediately enamored with it.

It took some time before learning how to use it. (and I don't mean just a few minutes or hours)

IME it's a mic you have to kind of dance with....you have to get to know it and it has to get to know you. How to work it almost becomes an instinctual thing, and a very individual thing. To a certain extent there may be slight differences in how I work it for best effect compared to how you work it for best effect.

I'm no engineer, but if you record at a higher bit rate (24 or above) it might reduce the noise floor a bit.

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject:

Paul, as long as Brian doesn't mind, I'd be happy to post some of the finer troubleshooting nuggets from our emails here.

Thanks for your thoughts, Elwood! I find I can get usable results the more I play with it, and I love using it for video projects, where the noise I refer to isn't as noticable, but when recording to a DAW, it's quite apparent to me, as you can hear in this file.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y1p1a46xaqgrnnb/416PlayingAroundEdit.mp3?dl=0

I gotta say, this thread has taken many an unexpected and invaluable turn! Shoulda changed it to "Everybody help Sean out!" I can't tell you how grateful I am to everyone who's been so generous with their experience and advice.
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

paulstefano · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:43 pm Post subject:

You deserve it big guy. Have a good day
_________________
http://www.paulstefano.com

vkuehn · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:44 pm Post subject:

Sean, there is some noise in your studio in the recording today that just wasn't there in what you posted yesterday. The noise yesterday was rather constant, steady, kin to a hiss or a fizz.

Today's sample has something in the background with a syncopated UNSTEADY noise. Like a mouse sized Harley sitting there idling at a stop light, like a miniature sewing machine hemming up a pair of miniature pants. It has a repeating pattern.

And the way I measure noise, it was about -54 where in yesterday's recording you were down about -57 or -58 in comparison.

The good news is that a gentle non-corrosive noise removal scheme will take it out... but's it's nicer when raw recordings unprocessed come in at -59 to -63. Then you can get by with nothin more than a "feather duster" kind of noise removal.

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Vernon!

Yesterday's recording I silenced the noisy sections, but this one I wanted to more accurately showcase the issue.

Thanks for the kind words, Paul!
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

vkuehn · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject:

yesterday you provided two files, the one with talk, the other was room tone. Did you buy some of that fake room tone someone was offering to sell last year? Sarcastic

The room tone file yesterday was not roiled by the noise of today.

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject:

Ah, Gotcha. Hmmm, I DID do two things differently today. I moved the mic cable away from any other electronics, and I changed the position of the mic in the shockmount so the slots faced horizontally, not vertically. And now, that I think about it, I believe the gain was a little higher as well. (I usually record my Rode NT1 and former MK4 at 3'o clock, but in those earlier tests, I had the 416 around 2. When I switched mics for the test, I did not reduce the gain.) Guess I should rethink those changes, haha.
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

vkuehn · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:05 pm Post subject:

Don't let your logic get tangled up when doing a test like this. As far as room noise is concerned, it doesn't matter what your gain setting is on the channel.

(In measuring internal noise in your electronics, then gain settings are part of the test. That is the kind of testing that requires having a dummy-plug in your mixer rather than the live mic.)

When recording we don't measure absolute or laboratory standards of noise. We measure the RATIO between program content (your voice) and the noise. If you turn the gain up, both your voice and the noise get turned up. If you turn the gain down, both your voice and the noise get turned down.

Your file had your voice having repetitive peaks at about -9. So I measured the level of your noise compared to the -9 peaks.

When I point out the the noise from the day before was rather solid and steady in level, and that today's noise was vibrant and dynamic, gain setting will not cause that kind of difference.

There is another variable going on somewhere. If you can figure out what that change is, then you can come up with a possible fix. Having the grill vertical vs. horizontal could play a role. Distance between your mouth and the mic (almost) ALWAYS plays a role. With a highly directional mic, aiming the mic at the one place in your room or booth where external noise is coming in will make a difference. If there is electronic equipment inside the recording space, aiming the mic toward or away from the equipment is a factor in the noise level vs. the "program content" level.

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject:

Oh, the more I learn...

On the plus side, I feel like I'm getting a master class on audio troubleshooting, gratis!
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

Frank F · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:17 pm Post subject:

"The game is afoot Watson.". Sherlock Holmes

I will add my $0.02 worth of slueth-ness to the foray. To me, the noise sounds a lot like unsheilded cables runnung parallel to power cords.

I could be wrong, but that is what I hear.

Further, although somewhat flattering, the 416 is really not a complimentary Mic for your voice. At least not the way you are pairing it and using it.

Is it the room, the equipment, the operator, the presentation, or the software? I cannot say. You need to judge for yourself from your clients reactions to the new sound.

Further the hyped amplification circuit in the MJE NT-1A does not, will not, and cannot sound like a U-87 - period.

F2
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:41 pm Post subject:

That's a valuable 2 cents, Frank! Thank you for helping me confirm my suspicions. I also don't think the 416 is a good fit, and am seriously considering selling it. My modest mic locker is in danger of expanding exponentially, I'd like to keep it to 3 if I can (a daily driver, a backup, and a backup of a backup.)

I just read some reviews of my mogami silver cables, and shielding does seem to be an issue. I have another cable from a different brand as well (but if anyone has other suggestions, I'm all ears!)

Haha, I remember reading your thoughts on marketing claims for mods or other mics involving the U87. I know if I want that Neumann sound, there's only one place to get it. (Two, if you count Gefell.) I just want a good mic, preferably under a grand, haha.
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

Frank F · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject:

You should not necessarily assume the cables are the entire culprit. Changing the way the cables are placed can make a change almost worthy of a cable change.

So far, and I listen to a lot of microphones regularly, I have not found any microphone that claims to sound like a U-87, does .

I have friend on Long Island who is a proud user of a Klaus Heiner microphone (VM-1). I made him promise if anything happens to him, I get his microphone. Klaus designed many mics for Neumann and the microphone I am speaking of sounds better than a U-47, 67.or 87.

Why is it that so that microphone makers try to copy the best microphone for voice?

Sorry to make the conclusion about the 416 and your voice. But the truth really doesn't hurt. There are plenty of greatt mics for your sound available for under a grand. Get discovering now.

F2
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

sdaeley17 · Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:20 pm Post subject:

Haha, no offense or hurt felt, Frank! Playing with mics is fun! (albeit expensive.)

I think we can all agree that the U87 is a status symbol in these contexts. It sounds far more impressive to say "It sounds just like (or better) than a U87" rather than "This is a really good mic, I promise!"
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

sdaeley17 · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:01 am Post subject:

Alright! Moved a bunch of stuff around (mic location, cables, power cable, power strip, laptop, interface, usb port, swapped usb cables) and have seemed to reduce the noise to an acceptable level. If anyone's willing to give 5 minutes of their time to listen to my trouble shooting efforts, I'd greatly appreciate it!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pamb7zhzgmtidwc/NoiseTests.mp3?dl=0
_________________
"There's Magic all around us; you just have to see it. And the most wonderful Magic of all, is just bein' alive." -Uncle Montork, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe

captain54 · Lucky 700 Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 744 Location: chicago