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Four Way Blind Mic Shootout
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 12 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully it's a U87ai and you are going to do a shootout with the D87 Smile
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sdaeley17
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You just gave me an idea, Jason: "Attack of the clones!" A shoot out of 4-5 "u87 alternatives" versus the u87ai. Someone get recording hacks on the line and make it happen!
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 12 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cha! In a very voice over specific way though. Maybe they'll mail me a bunch of mics and I'll test them out Smile
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DenaliDave
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Joined: 09 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason Huggins wrote:
Hopefully it's a U87ai and you are going to do a shootout with the D87 Smile


Heh, it's not a U87ai .... Hm, did it sound like a U87ai?

It's not a clone, kit-built or modded mic. It's a commercially available microphone...

I do like the idea though of trying a bunch of kit built and modded mics that are "supposed" to sound like a U87 though in a voice/spoken word specific test. The mics I can think of off the top of my head for this would be:

-D87 70's "vintage style" U87
-Michael Jolly "Mod'd RODE NT1a - U87 Alternative"
- 3U Warbler 1D
- AdvancedAudio CM87

I'd throw the Peluso P-87 in there, but those cost as much as a used modern U87ai ... On top of that, my D87 clone has a Peluso-made capsule in it anyway.

If I were to do it, I'd do a very controlled test with a clean preamp/interface that isn't over the top in price or quality either -- something reasonable like a ISA One (something many people have used) instead of something crazy expensive like a Martech MSS-10.

I'd run the same broadcast test "one hen, two ducks, three squawking geese..." test through them all at set, measured distances from the microphone (3", 6", 9") ...

So you'd have several unprocessed tracks of each mic...

THEN, I'd chop each section of each test up. For example you'd hear "One Hen" from each microphone before moving to "two ducks" from each microphone -- that way you can instantly hear side-by-side. It's hard to A/B compare when you have to listen to 20-30 seconds of one and then 20-30 seconds of the other (especially if they sound very similar).

I'd also record a test tone into each microphone to get a real-world frequency response graph.

Then, I would record all of the above with a "known quantity" such as a TLM-103 or MKH 416, something everyone has heard before and knows. It would act as a sort of "control" or akin to that little bowl of coffee beans you sniff between sampling colognes (to refresh your nose).

Anyway, very pleased so far with the mystery mic. The 4-way shootout showed the TLM-102 was to be sent home from the island....Sorry, 102 ...we're just not a good match. Frown
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Rob Ellis
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd throw the Peluso P-87 in there, but those cost as much as a used modern U87ai ... On top of that, my D87 clone has a Peluso-made capsule in it anyway.


Dave, just to clarify...

new Peluso P-87=$994

Used U87ai= approx $2200-$2400

If you can find a used U87ai in good condition for $994 that would be the deal of a lifetime. cool
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DenaliDave
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elwood wrote:
Quote:
I'd throw the Peluso P-87 in there, but those cost as much as a used modern U87ai ... On top of that, my D87 clone has a Peluso-made capsule in it anyway.


Dave, just to clarify...

new Peluso P-87=$994

Used U87ai= approx $2200-$2400

If you can find a used U87ai in good condition for $994 that would be the deal of a lifetime. cool


According to Peluso's website:
MSRP $1,169 USD

I've seen some U87's go for about that on ebay at auction, not the "buy it now" price.

EDIT: There's one right now that's ending in 6 days. Current bid is $431. I expect it to go much higher, but I doubt it'll go higher than $1,169

Hm, makes me kind of wish I had held out longer...LOL. Why does this always happen?!
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Rob Ellis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, you may be privy to information or a buying source that I'm not aware of, but having purchased 3 used U87ais in the last 7 years, I've never seen a U87/U87ai in good condition go for less than $2200. And if their resale value has dropped 50% recently I wasn't aware of it.

But if you can find a good one at that price and it's in your budget and the seller is legit, IMO you should grab it.
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DenaliDave
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elwood wrote:
Dave, you may be privy to information or a buying source that I'm not aware of, but having purchased 3 used U87ais in the last 7 years, I've never seen a U87/U87ai in good condition go for less than $2200. And if their resale value has dropped 50% recently I wasn't aware of it.

But if you can find a good one at that price and it's in your budget and the seller is legit, IMO you should grab it.


That's a good point -- I've been watching ebay like a hawk, and I've noticed auctions with low prices sometimes seem to disappear. I found one being sold by a guy in Itally via hifishark.com for 900 euros, which is about 1017 USD, looks in good condition too.
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Jason Huggins
The Gates of Troy


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DenaliDave wrote:

Heh, it's not a U87ai .... Hm, did it sound like a U87ai?


I haven't actually listened but I'd love to hear a shootout. Smile
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DenaliDave
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason Huggins wrote:
DenaliDave wrote:

Heh, it's not a U87ai .... Hm, did it sound like a U87ai?


I haven't actually listened but I'd love to hear a shootout. Smile


Well, if I had a U87ai to compare it to -- I would. Smile

I do have some known quantities like the RE-20 and the TLM-102 from the 4-way shoot out to compare the new mic to...
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Bill Campbell
DC


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know you CAN EQ any high quality, neutral mic to sound like just about anything.

I used a U87 for years in a studio where I worked. It's a mid forward sounding mic that works on most people, but it was never a mic that made me go wow.

Once the patents went out of date, many manufacturers were able to use some of Neumann's tech to make better sounding mics for much less money.

Dave, if you don't have one, by a 416 and EQ for the project.
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DenaliDave
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 416 is on my list next, mainly because I want my work to be able to be dropped in and compatible with other people's work who use a 416. Also, sound engineers know how how to work the EQ on stuff recorded with a 416.

You're right about EQ. In the 4-way shootout I went back and EQ'ed 3 out of the 4 mics, and got them all to sound pretty close to #2 (Neumann TLM-102).

Comparing the frequency response graph from the manufacturer, combined with watching a live spectrum waveform as it plays helps immensley. A little +5db high shelf EQ at 10k, -5db bell at 300 to cut some mud ect, ect.
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sdaeley17
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ready for the big reveal, Dave? I've been waitin' all week!
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DenaliDave
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Smile

The mystery mic is something I had to think long and hard about. I took a listen to a LOT of my own stuff and noted siilarities and differences between the mics I've used, and compared how I sounded on them to how they were "known" to sound, and what their respective frequency range/response was.

When I use a de-esser, I have to target right around 7-8k. Most mics seem to add a positive db boost in this area.

Some mics had negative dips on that frequency range. I looked at the TLM-49 and 103. In the end, however, I decided that these mics had a bit "to much" character. I didn't want what happened with the TLM-102 to happen again. I didn't want to get stuck with a mic that sounded factory EQ'ed.

So...the big reveal is:



TLM-67!

I haven't seem much, or heard much about anyone using this microphone for VO or...well, really anything.

One of the things that made me decide to give it a try was how flat it supposedly was going to sound:



So far I'm pleased with the sound. There's a lot of detail without it sounding overly "crisp". I don't hear that pronounced presence boost that the 102 gives my voice. People have said it sounded like the e100s and the D87 clone, and that's about right. The e100s is also a pretty flat mic, and the D87 is a clone of a vintage 1970's U87, which doesn't have the shirll/harsh top end the U87ai has been criticized for by a few.

If I do a high bell EQ starting at about 5k, peaking +4db at 9k and then dropping off, it sounds really good.

It doesn't seem to really need it though. I have a bit more time to evaluate it before time runs out to return it.

So far, I'm happy with it! I haven't really gotten any thumbs up or down on just the mystery mic vs. my others, but I do know I'll be putting the 102 up for sale. I do want to hold onto the clone since it was custom built for me (I picked the colors, powder coating texture and options). The e100s I may trade away to someone that wants to play around to see if it can be fixed. I don't need so many mics. A good LDC and a backup LDC (the D87 clone) and good quality dynamic (my RE-20) should serve me well.

Well, that is until I get around to a 416...
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