VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[Brian in Charlotte]

MOD NOTE: This discussion orginanally started here.


I find this term VERY interesting: "...high end Mexican Furniture store." They want to pay someone a "low end" $50 for a :30 spot? It would help all voiceover talent if the person auditioning would help awaken the talent seeker by submitting a rate that is reasonable...which depending on the market, would be well over 4x that amount. If someone decides to offer their services to this "high end" establishment, please consider a "high end" rate to go along with it...it would serve all talent well.
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Brian Haymond
www.TheVoiceofBrian.com
YouTube.com/VoiceofBrian
Twitter.com/TheVoiceofBrian

[bobbinbeamo]

I agree with you Brian!
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Bobbin Beam
www.bobbinbeam.com
blog.bobbinbeam.com

[Bill Campbell]

$50 for just the VO on a :30? That's not that bad for a local radio VO.
Again, that's for just the VO and not the production, copywriting, cost of music, distribution, and archiving?

I'd do four of those a day, then go play golf.
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[Brian in Charlotte]

Bill, with all do respect, the value of a recording is not in how long it takes or whether or not I can make a quick couple of bucks...it's mainly in the end use of the product. Why would you settle for $50 when you should be getting paid multiplied times that amount? Again, I sincerely would not mean any disrespect whatsoever so please don't be offended, but the paradigm that you seem to have not only hurts you but all voiceover talent. Low-ball rates like what was offered should be shunned by all voice actors in my opinion.

A professional is worthy of a reasonable wage, that wage is mostly driven by the end use of the audio. A local TV spot would pay less than a national spot yet you would have worked the same amount of time.

Please, for the sake of all voice actors, and yourself, check with talents on this board and evaluate your rate card to see if perhaps some adjustments are necessary.
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Brian Haymond
www.TheVoiceofBrian.com
YouTube.com/VoiceofBrian
Twitter.com/TheVoiceofBrian

[Bill Campbell]

I knew my post would draw comments. But that's what VO-BB is all about.

The current session fee for an AFTRA voice actor is 249.50. For that fee, you must be a union member. Likely have an agent. Pay dues to the union. Drive to a recording studio. Most likely live in New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles. What's your net income in that scenario?

To voice a :30 local radio commercial for $50, in your pajamas, in your home studio, and send it e-mail, isn't that bad. There are talented people on this board who would do it all day. Others that wouldn't.

Personally, my company pays much more than that. But, we produce regional and some national commercials.

I'm just sayin', some jobs pay $400 for a 13 week VO, and some pay $50.
Everybody needs to decide on their threshold of pain or pleasure.
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[chriswagner]

I'm non-union, and I get $250 for a spot. Even if that spot is two whole lines out of the script.

And sometimes I get $250 for doing a :60 radio and :30 tv (as a package deal).

Sometimes I get $100 for doing a :15 tag.

And sometimes, I get $50 for doing a :30 in a small nowhere town on the border.

But I will not sell out low just to get a gig.

People, we are selling what is now becoming a commodity! I started working in the computer industry when I was a wee lad of 12. At the time, computers cost around a grand. There was enough margin in the sales for the store to throw in a box of paper, and maybe a couple of boxes of disks. And the computer manufacturer (Apple in this case..) Gave away a ton of free and fairly useful software (at the time).

Then, the prices dropped, Price Club got into selling computers at a margin of %6 or less.. and turned the computer market into a commodity market.

We are on the cusp of that with Voice Over I believe.

For those of you in radio or had been in radio, I hope you didn't experience the same fear as I did; that every person who you didn't know that was being given a tour of the station was your replacement.. Which kept you from demanding a raise, a decent raise so you could make some kind of living.

Not that the station would give it to you, they had a line of people who wanted so badly to do what you did.. you just had to be happy you had the job in the first place!

That's similar to what I see is happening now in the VO arena... It's not too widespread yet, but lower pitches will bring down the whole structure. And a rush of people coming in and wanting to do the job for whatever they can get! It's like having a neighbor with 3 rusted out trucks in their front yard. Takes the value of the neighborhood down.

So, Bill, when you said $50 in your pajamas isn't so bad... I would agree with you, but when we get to the point that clients won't be willing to pay more than $50 then this growth in the voice over industry... this bubble, will pop just like the internet bubble did at the end of 1999.

Help keep our value from slipping, don't go for cheap!

Wow.. I must of felt strongly about this. Someone make sure to keep me grounded.

[Jeffrey Kafer]

Telling VOs not to take lowball rates isn't going to change anything. If you reduce the number of lowballers, you've just created more gigs for those who remain lowball. Meanwhile the guy might have landed the $50 gig now has no gigs.

The trick is to educate the client as to WHY they should pay more.

Do you offer the client more?
Does the client see value in paying you more?
If the answer to either of the above is no, then you shouldn't get paid more!

Stop trying to convince VOs that they shouldn't take lower rates and spend that energy telling the client why they should hire you for a higher rate!

People who work at mcDonalds get paid minimum wage. Why? Because the services is "good enough" and the company doesn't need to pay more because if you don't take the gig, some other kid will.

This is a free market society people. Add value to your product and some people will buy it. But trying to convince the starving VO who's just trying to make it in this biz not to take a low paying gig is ridiculous, presumptuous and a bit high-and-mighty sounding. And it won't work.

Ya know what? I'm recording a 30 spot tonight for $65. Would I like to get more? Sure. but the client isn't willing to go any higher and if I say no, then he'll walk and I'll end up sitting on the couch watching Gilmore Girls with my wife. And that doesn't pay the bills.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com

[ConnieTerwilliger]

[Bailey]

I love this thread.


My only objection to a $50 gig (though I would do a back flip to have one right now) is that I would hate for the client to believe that it is the norm. After doing a $50 gig, I would make sure that the client has in their possession, my business card and rate card.
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"Bailey"
a.k.a. Jim Sutton
Retired... Every day is Saturday, except Sunday.
VO-BB Member #00044 .gif" alt="W00T" border="0" />
AOVA Graduate 02/2004 ;
"Be a Voice, not an Echo."

[ronphi]

Just thought I would weigh in on this. There aren't a lot of details in the ad. This "high end Mexican furniture store" might be in East Burlap, Maine, West Burlap, Washington or Middle Burlap, Oklahoma. For all we know $50 might be a great fee. Also notice the email domain for the agency is a Yahoo account. May not mean anything but as we all know, image is important.

Also we can look at this like professional baseball. There are the "major leaguers" who always go first class and get through-the-roof salaries. Next are the "AAA" and "AA" players who have a good chance of making the show or have been there and are on their way back. They make pretty good money and travel well. Even if they don't make it to the big club they are doing what they love and making a good living. Finally there are the "A" and industrial leagues. These folks travel by bus, get per diem and take other jobs in the winter to make ends meet. Some may make it but most don't. All the above are paid according to their particular level (talent, experience, name recognition, market, agent, etc.). Not looking for sympathy. As I said I am just releasing my frustration.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress.

So it is with VO. We have the majors who are getting great gigs well above scale (probably wouldn't go for work like this). We have the AAAs and AAs who make a good living and do this because they love it. They may or may not want to do $50 spots. Either way is OK. They have their reasons. Lastly there are the rest of us who need to start somewhere but are not at the level to charge scale or close-to-scale rates every time out. We need to hone our craft in order to be called up to the next level. It seems to me that experience can be gained in doing freebies for charities, audio books for the blind and any number of good causes (some have been posted here). But experience can also be gained in auditioning for and performing $50 spots. After doing enough, the fees should naturally increase as expertise and demand increases. I would certainly like to get a few hundred dollars for a :30 but at my point in the progression I could easily, and with clear conscience, accept $50. I say this because right now I am not at the point where I would land a documentary on History Channel. a corporate presentation for Microsoft or a 13 week national TV spot for American Express.

Others have said that you should look like a pro, walk like a pro, talk like a pro and charge like a pro. If you do these things other people will see you as a pro. I couldn't agree more. However, in order to get someone to listen you have to actually record and have something for them to hear. From other posts it seems that sometimes these $50 things blossom into $250 things, into $1,000 things, and so on.

It is hard to convey the proper tone to this type of post since there is no inflection or nuance in the printed word. This is supposed to be just a statement. No malice, indictment, encouragement or even disagreement intended.

{stepping down from soapbox} This from a guy who hasn't made it to the per diem stage yet. Just my little release of frustration. My plans for cutting a demo have had a little setback ($$). The documentary I voiced that got me into this is still not finished. My agreement (very naive at the time) was payment on release of the documentary. It is now 8+ months behind initial target and 2 months behind what I thought was the final edit (I have seen a rough cut) so the money I was hoping to use for a demo hasn't come in. (BTW, I'm having a little piece of Cheddar to go along with this whine).

Sorry about the novella. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming already in progress.
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Ron Phillips

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urging for investment in the radio in the 1920s.

[Yoda117]

[Philip Banks]

THREAD KILLER LINE Here in the UK ......the Equity (British actors union) minimum for one radio commercial starts at $30 for a radio station with an audience of somewhere around 30,000 or less and the minimum rises up to $1,100 for a national station like Classic FM. I would estimate that over 95% of the work is done using ISDN and the voice is not required to get involved in any production work.

Business is about a meeting of needs. A client needs a commercial for $50 and Bill, indeed many other like him, is able to deliver for that amount. Other people share neither the client's enthusiasm for the budget or Bill's lifestyle and business needs. The two relevant people in the relationship are happy.

How much YOU charge and how YOU do business is none of my business. I am happy to take an interest of course.

I did my end of month invoice run a couple of days ago and noticed that in April, radio commercials made up 1.43% of my business. I'd be interested to know how your business compares.

[Brian in Charlotte]

Jeffrey, you said "Stop telling VOs that they shouldn't take lower rates..." and "do you offer more...does the client see value in paying more". Here is something I'm not sure you understand:

1. In this particular case the client is a "HIGH END" establishement.
2. This "HIGH END" establishment wants to pay you a LOW END $50 for a spot that they will run OVER & OVER & OVER, each time potentially garnering revenue with every airing and they want to pay you once when YOU are a large part of the success of the ad. Is that fair to you? Is that reasonable? Low overhead costs have absolutely nothing to do with the value of the product. However, if you want to look at the $50 that way, figure this:

-Double social security
-Income tax
-Electricity
-Equipment use
-Health Insurance
-etc.

Now, your big $50 take has dwindled far below HALF, meanwhile the client just tells the station..."keep playing my ad, it only cost me $50 to get voiced and I've already paid for that 100 fold, boy I love those folks who see no real value in their product...I'll use them again"!

If every business was run like you are suggesting, they would go under. The value of a voiceover is in the end product, period...NO other way to view it...that is the standard!

Here's challenge: As Joe Cipriano and the Don what they think about $50 VO's.
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Brian Haymond
www.TheVoiceofBrian.com
YouTube.com/VoiceofBrian
Twitter.com/TheVoiceofBrian

[Bill Campbell]

My initial response on this thread "$50 for a local radio :30 is not that bad" was merely to get a good discussion going.

And, we have!

Please don't brand me as "Mr. Fifty Bucks".

I don't normally charge $50 for a read. However, I do have one large furniture store that I do $50 reads for, raw unedited VO only. Hard-sell,
assembly line stuff. I do THIRTY of these a month, every month, for their twice monthy "sales". That's $1500 a month for about four hours of work.
And, I don't feel guilty about it.

Get your regular base business going. Then, charge much more for clients who recognize and desire higher quality work.
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www.asapaudio.com

[KaraEdwards]

Who was it at the Voice conference (sorry, I know...another Voice reference!) that said if you are non-union and want to drop your rate to get more business...drop it 20% below union and explain to the client the discount they are receiving by choosing you?

Sorry- that was wordy and paraphrased...but hopefully the point is there. To each his or her own- charge what you heart tells you you are worth.

Recently, I was contacted by an ad agency. Their client wanted me to voice one line in a radio commercial for $50. I declined. Yes, the line had 7 words...I still said no. I could have voiced in my pj's...still no. I wouldn't have needed to leave my house...uh..no. I was friendly but didn't offer much explanation as to why. I just said it was well below my minimum fee and thank you for calling. A week later they called back, met my minimum and surpassed it. Was I surprised- heck yeah! But I was glad I stuck to my gut.

I know what I'm worth- we each would be better served to figure out our own worth in this business.

I've been voice acting for years, but only went full-time a few months ago. While I still have much to learn- I think my talent is worth something. If I believe it, the client will believe it.
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Threadjackers local 420

Kara Edwards
http://www.karaedwards.com
kara@karaedwards.com