VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[robert jadah]

Help me out of a moral dilemma here.
We voicers spend about 33 percent of our time decrying low rates and insulting offers for our VO services.
Yet, when Mr. Kafer posts his site-building problems and his readiness to go to guru.com and craigslist to find a good and reasonable web site designer, a dozen replies suggest cousins, friends, and other experts who will bury him in prototypes, better suggestions, and a finished product which will satisfy him; all for less than $100.

We all cheer.
What part of this equation am I missing?

[Jeffrey Kafer]

I've never argued that all Voice talent should be paid union scale. Indeed some talent are not worthy of a dime. The point most of us make when we decry low rates is that clients expect US to have low rates simply because some noob on craigslist will do it for $50.

I have no issue with someone who wants VO on the cheap. Just don't expect that to be me. And when I look for a graphic designer, I'm going to look for someone less expensive because that's all I can afford. I understand I'm not going to get the same quality as if I paid top dollar. Nor am I going to expect everyone to lower their rates simply because someone will do it cheaper.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com

[louzucaro]

You're not missing anything. This is, for the most part, our society.

People get offended when others don't see the value in our talent or skills, but as consumers, we want what we want, right now, for free if at all possible.

Sometimes I have to remind my clients that they only get to pick two of the following three on any given project...
1) Perfect
2) Cheap
3) Fast

Sure, sometimes you can get a great deal on something amazing. Usually, amazing costs more money.

Robert, as another example, I know a guy who is in a creative profession. He designs products (let's leave it at that). I've witnessed him in near-meltdown mode when he feels that somebody else in the business has stolen an idea he mentioned in coversation. AN IDEA. Yet, at the same time, he buys pirated DVDs from people on the street in NYC and has, himself, worked on projects for properties which have not been legally licensed.

Whenever he complains, I just laugh at him and tell him that he deserves whatever he gets if that's the way he's gonna be.

I'm pretty good at reading people...if I get a vibe that somebody's gonna be a PITA* client who wants 10 times the work they're paying for and thinks it's ok to re-spec a project without paying for it, I'll just tell them I can't take on their project.





*Pain in the a**
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Lou Zucaro
http://www.voicehero.com

"Well, yeah, there's my favorite leaf!"

[Bailey]

[Jeffrey Kafer]

oh and by the way, your post borderlines on personal attack. Just sayin'.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com

[Don G.]

I'm finding this thread interesting. And for what it's worth, I think it's a stretch to think the initial post even comes close to a personal attack. I think it's simply an observation...and a valid one. Hell, I find myself dealing with similar issues on a regular basis, as a vendor and a consumer. I certainly wouldn't presume o speak for Robert, but my bet would be that nothing personal was intended.

[Jeffrey Kafer]

It's not stretch that someone might be offended by using the words "hypocrisy" and that person's name in a thread in a public forum.

And Lou is spot-on. If we give customers a choice between cheap, fast, and perfect, then we damn well better be prepared for the client to choose cheap as one of their options!
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com

[Deirdre]

[Ed Gambill]

Robert has a good point, and he used Jeffery as an example to elucidate the issue. Jeff I really don’t believe Robert meant you any harm; you just were a handy example.

Before I got further let me provide some background that is germane to this topic;

In the late 80s Wal-Mart bough the Verhauf (German for to sell) chain of stores in what was then West Germany. The first thing they did was to buy merchandize for their stores using the strong buying power they enjoy and then selling the items a below cost for lose leader merchandizing. A practice we American eat up. But in doing so Wal-Mart ran afoul of the German law and was told that loss leader selling was not allowed in Germany. About three years ago Wal-Mart sold all it stores in Germany and move on to other pasture. Germany still has a robust economy in spite of the face that loss leader selling and other predatory marketing practices are Verboten.

This story is use to show that value support and price protection can be a good thing. The unions desire to set price for its members by set minimums that they say are reasonable and customary for the work done by their members. SaVoa also will be working to help its members be aware of the reasonable and customary VO fees that are paid for professional work in various areas, so that its members can avoid under pricing their work. Unlike the union however, SaVoa members are guild members and are responsible for their pricing decisions.

In the US as the result of lose leader advertising we have been lead, like a animal with a ring in its nose, down the path of cheaper is better, always demanding the lowest price even when it means the person selling is not making a fair wage and/or profit on their work”.

But in this inter-net driven economy where any one can play VO guy or Web designer person and sell for “Loss Leader Pricing’, it does nothing to help respect the value of labor and service.

I, Jeffery, and Robert all have the right to find the best price for good and services. But shouldn’t an underlying theme be I don’t want to take advantage, because I believe in equable training. “Fair Trade Coffee” is all the rage now. Folks are taking notice that coffee growers are not getting paid equitable prices for their coffee. We as consumers are being cajoled to buy coffee that is branded “Fair Trade” and guess what it cost more. Shouldn’t VO talent want to engage in a system that encourages “Fair Trade VO”

I for one practice what I preach. I want the person I am dealing with to feel that they are getting fare wages for their work and I am getting fare value for what I am buying. I operate under the simple idea that “I might need additional services and who better to provide it then the person who first provide it”. So if I work to ensure that my dealings are fair and equitable then that person I want to use a second our third time will more likely be in business.

If we all embraced Fair Trade maybe someday jobs will come back to North America. Lord knows the Chinese don’t engage in Fair Trade anything.

To quote the Sage of the North “Fair Trade On”
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Esse quam videri "To be rather than to seem"
www.SaVoa.org No. 07000 Member AES

[Jeffrey Kafer]

Your use of "fair trade Coffee" isn't exactly apples to apples. no one is forcing low rates on the VOs. If I go to Guru.com and 50 people offer me a logo for $100, how am I oppressing them economically? This is the rate they have offered and obviously they think they are getting a good deal.

Also keep in mind, Ed, you're trying to get fair pricing for folks who have passed the "certification" for Savoa. So there's a reasonable bar of quality there. Half the crud on Craigslist wouldn't pass any reasonable criteria and therefore should not get paid what Savoa folks get paid.

And yet, there's a market for their services. I'm sure you love a good steak, Ed. But I'm also betting you've been to McDonalds at least once in your life.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com

[louzucaro]

[tackerman]

Two sayings come to mind.

"Everyone wants something for nothing."
"You get what you pay for."

If you're trolling Guru and Craig's list for goods & services you're basically saying you want what you're looking for... you just aren't all that interested in paying for it.

[Ed Gambill]

I was going to reply but I realized that what I want to say is too long and I already used up my quota of words for this month.

Only one thought. We as a nation seem to be willing to throw up our hands and say “Oh we can’t turn things around”. Consider the folks in the Netherlands. Every day they turn back the North Sea to protect their land. We just need a better bench market to look at.
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Esse quam videri "To be rather than to seem"
www.SaVoa.org No. 07000 Member AES

[ccpetersen]

I'm primarily a writer -- have been for many years. In all of that time, I've priced my work according to what I think it's worth, how much of my time it's going to take, etc. It would never occur to me to offer those services on Craig's List, mostly because there's not a category for "Science writer of documentaries." I have, however, browsed Craig's List for other things, and it's perfectly fine place to look for things, just as eBay is...

As for price... well...

Over the years, there have been those competitors who have done one of the following:

1) asked me right out what I charge (I don't tell them, for a variety of reasons);
2) gone to people I've worked with and asked what I charged (some of them tell, some don't -- sometimes it's in the contract that the amounts are not to be divulged);
3) having found out what I charge, gone to prospective clients and told them that they can do what I do, but for half the price. One competitor, who has since left the game, used to tell clients "Oh, anybody can write, so let me do it for you cheaper than X, Y, and Z because they're just selling you their name brand."

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide if what they're doing is right, ethical, moral, whatever. What's of interest to ME is the idea that "Oh anybody can write." Or, in the case of VO, "OH, anybody can do VO."

Both are statements made from ignorance of what it takes to do those jobs. Certainly many people have been taught to write, and most people have voices and can talk. But does that make them good at either one? Not by itself. It takes experience and training and more experience and ultimately exposure in the marketplace before you know you can sell those services to others. And that experience and training is worth something to the potential client.

If the logo designers are pricing themselves at $100 or whatever, then they know what their work is worth and have figured that they can wrap up their design viewpoint and experience into that price and still make a living. If not, they will find out soon enough that it's not worth it to charge that price.

I think the same would be true of the $50 voiceover artist -- eventually he or she will figure out that $50 a pop isn't going to cover the cost of the mics, the soundproofing, the billing, the re-billing, the classes (if they take them), etc.

Back to the original query though:

I do think that the term "hypocrisy" thrown at JK is somewhat unfair. He's found a marketplace for the work he needs done and is paying what he can afford. It's ironic, maybe, that he wants to charge what HE wants for his work while looking for someone to supply what HE needs at a price HE can afford.

It's no different from buying a house -- you want to pay what you can afford; what YOU personally make is not really the concern of the seller of the house, other than it better be enough to make the payments.
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Charter Member: Threadjackers Local 420

[robert jadah]

...oops; I touched a nerve.
In no way, however, should my post be seen as bordering on a personal attack. It's not even on the same continent.
Why, oh why, JK, would I launch a personal attack? I don't know you, and certainly bear neither grudges nor animosity towards you.
In the context of simultaneously supporting discounters in other crafts while bemoaning them in ours, "hypocricy" and "we voicers" (of which I'm a part), were connected. Not hypocricy and your name.

And thanks for your thoughts, all.
It helps.